Project Lore: Five dudes. Four cameras. One World of Warcraft.

Posted by Bastosa on Monday, October 13th, 2008 - 37 Comments

Tags: Paladin, tank, tanking, Warrior, wrath of the lich king

Comments

By Saemundr on Monday, October 13th, 2008 at 3:26 pm

I have exactly the same concerns Bast.

I happen to LOVE diversification. So long as there are points in all levels of content where the different classes shine points are well used, i never saw a problem.

I dont mind not being picked first to tank many single mob bosses, when im a must have for picking up lost adds in the Lurker fight with my ranged taunt, or maybe just AoE controlling those pesky murlocs further down the track etc etc.

I like the idea of the tanks being CLOSER in ability - you dont NEED this one or that one, but in certain circumstances, such and such a class makes it easier…

but IDENTICAL? thats maybe a step too far…

By Jato on Monday, October 13th, 2008 at 3:41 pm

If they turn my rage blue I’m gonna /wrists

By Twest on Monday, October 13th, 2008 at 3:41 pm

Bast, I must say it can be a great thing for some of us casual guilds who don’t have the heavy hittin Tankadin, but on the same note, yea diversity is a great thing. I’m a BM Huntard and have been watching the upgrades I will be getting in my trees. Such as the ability, should I respec Survivalist, to trap from afar with an arrow. I’m excited for the new talents and pet tress, but at the same time, I really don’t wanna relearn a new shot rotation, or spend the gold to respec every couple of days tryin to figure out which tree now gives the best build. I am glad about Salv being revamped tho, hate that buff. Have fun with that 1 Pallys…

By Bastosa on Monday, October 13th, 2008 at 3:55 pm

@Jato

You are going to love being a Pally, I can tell already.

By Tim on Monday, October 13th, 2008 at 3:55 pm

Hunter tanks! w00t!

By Hashmal on Monday, October 13th, 2008 at 3:56 pm

Good thing i’m dps…

By Reyson on Monday, October 13th, 2008 at 3:58 pm

bast,you made an error:
“Shield Slam – Hammer of the Righteous is a new skill with a similar effect”.
It’s actually Shield of The Righteous which is a copy of shield slam - silence effect and high crits.
And to continue on what you wrote, don’t you notice a similarity between Thunderclap’s debuff and the one for Judgment of the Just(aka ThunderJudge).HotR might be comparable with HS/devastate,when fighting bosses.

Yes,we look quite the same ability/gearwise but tankadins will be more like a minigame to tank(696969 cds),while warrior will be mostly be spamming threatbuttons. Dunno about bears

By Woodynz on Monday, October 13th, 2008 at 4:03 pm

Being a Feral Tank I can see how such changes could help with the 5 man runs as far as mob agro management for nublets.

But will be extremely peev’d if they close the gaps enough that there is no big difference between warriors paladins & druids tanking roles, combine that with dual spec’ing and why even have warriors or druids? everyone could then just stack paladins in 25 man raid’s!

With the introduction of paladins to my fellow Hordies Warriors & Feral Tanks became a dying breed, Yet those who stayed became masters of there class.

What will become of my Feral Beast?

By mannax on Monday, October 13th, 2008 at 4:05 pm

as a tankadin as well bast im starting to worry about the same thing i dont ant to be like every other tank out there i loved being different and runing circles around warrior tanks in trash picking them all up
it will be nothing but a great shame if we all get put in the same “tank” spot because now it seems our only little advantage is that we can heal as well

oh yea druuuuuds



By zaltif on Monday, October 13th, 2008 at 4:41 pm

I have a 70 Warrior (Prot) I am excited for these new Talents, but i do not agree with what blizzard is doing.If a pally can do the same thing’s as a warrior and the other way around i may not be as wanted for instances and raids As i am now.
It will be interesting to see what blizzard does with tanking in Wrath.

By Nextgener on Monday, October 13th, 2008 at 4:43 pm

I Firmly have to say you Won’t have to worry. All tanks will posses there own Individual skills.

Wars Still=Main End Game Tanks (sorry pally’s, in wrath your can’t complete this role anymore).

Pally’s=Trash/Multi Mob Aggro control with an Incredible New Mechanic (you may fear it, but i’m telling you, 5 minutes and you will Forget the old mechanic).

Druids=DPS Tanks.

and DK=Magic Resist Tanks.

Each role is So different, and this is coming from someone who’s Played the Beta on All 4 Tank Styles.

I’m planning to End Game Tank Arthas on my War when the time comes, and yet Still I plan to have All Tank types at my side when the time comes. As each one WILL be necessary for the Final Battle. (a strong hint to mages too)

By Jonnycakes on Monday, October 13th, 2008 at 4:44 pm

so Drarridins seem to be the future of tanking. But theres one aspect that you have to throw into the mixture, how will DK Tanks play into the mix??

By zaltif on Monday, October 13th, 2008 at 4:54 pm

That’s Nice to know nextgen

By Steven on Monday, October 13th, 2008 at 6:18 pm

When you meen hint to mages will mages be more useful in wrath then before or are they going to be great for the end game in wrath (i am a fellow mage)

By Jato on Monday, October 13th, 2008 at 7:07 pm

@bast

Never will I enjoy being a pally.

By arcanepwnage on Monday, October 13th, 2008 at 7:09 pm

he means that there will be more mage tank battles. i, as my guilds primary mage tank is not very happy with that one

By Dæstiny on Monday, October 13th, 2008 at 10:03 pm

To be truly honest, even though many of these abilities are new and exciting, and contain many similar qualities of other abilities that other tanking classes have, it does not give them the EXACT same effect.

Being a Warrior Tank, I do great appreciate the improved Cleave, Thunder Clap, and Shockwave moves, however, they still do not even come close to the capabilities of a Paladin Tank. Consecration is the definition of AoE tanking; Warrior “AoE’s” are just meak imitations.

By Egma on Tuesday, October 14th, 2008 at 12:04 am

I agree and disagree at the same time, like some changes, dislike some changes, and hate other changes.

I like the fact that we can finaly ware old Prot Argo gear yet also now be able to ware standard tanking gear as a poss to having to scrifice some other stats for Spell damage to keep up with threat.

I dislike that they are trying to make all tanks have the same type of spells (though agree with Dæstiny in the fact they they are becoming similar but not completely the same)

I hate the Change to Blessing of Salvation, I loved that Paladins where the argo control class wither they where tanking or healing they could greatly reduce threat on everyone but the tank, now it seems almost (not quit but almost) a useless spell between how short it is, how much less it reduces and with how long the CD is to re use it, I mean sure it frees up a Blessings spot, but it just becomes an emergency button rather then a useful spell.

I have mixed feelings on wither I like or dislike the tank changes but won’t really know until playing with it a lot more then the little time spent on PTR.

By Nylow on Tuesday, October 14th, 2008 at 6:38 am

Alas, i am behind in the tanking area. Rogue’s FTW!! I have grown up playing a rogue and it will remain my forte.

However, i have been lvling my alt pally (damn it is fun!), but i still have a ways to go before i start seeing BC instances. Will have to grind before WotLK is out (3.0 patch is out today, only 1.2GB, Woot!!)

At least I will learn the new stuff while lvling and not have to readjust like most others. My brother plays a WarTank so not a huge rush, for me.

I did not get into beta so will have a lot to learn when all this new stuff is out.

Here’s to XP bar, o how i have missed thee.

By cocopuffs on Tuesday, October 14th, 2008 at 6:39 am

wow this is some heavy stuff i am lucky i do not have any high tank for this stuff by the time i get either of my tanking up to 70 i will have planty of time to figure all this out wat what you mean in the final battle the end game the thing i love most about this game is it never ends after arthas defeat i am sure blizz will have more whear that came from they are good that way i just hope i will able to ceap up with all of it i hate having to scip all of the 60 raids i missed allot

By cocopuffs on Tuesday, October 14th, 2008 at 6:52 am

allso have you guys seen the new login screen its mad cool blizzard realy out done tham self this time its just sucks i cant go one now the servers are ofline iam so excited to get from school look at all the talent trees the barber the harber all the good stuff i hate the interuptions

By Reyson on Tuesday, October 14th, 2008 at 7:28 am

nextgener,that’s a very weak assumption, in the end,tanks get chosen by the person playing it,like it’s meant to.It will be less of a “aoe tank” “caster tank” “single mob tank”.True,each class has it’s good sides,but it won’t make the others bad at it

By Nextgener on Tuesday, October 14th, 2008 at 8:06 am

Steven: it’s more like a Hint than a thought, when you consider the role Warlocks played in end game situations of BC (demon killer/controller v.s. mass hordes of demons). Now were heading into the Frosty thundra of Northrend. Hint, Hint, anyone?

Reason: Might wanna work on cleaning how you state your opinion. From what I understand, you mean Blizz is trying to break the aspect of a Specified Tanking class. Such as Pally’s won’t just be AOE tanks and Warriors won’t just be Single Target Tanks.

This is true, up to a Point.

If all Blizzard was trying to do was make all classes the same with each form of tanking having no difference, then you could just have 1 of every class in any given situation. All Tanks have there Differences in Style/Mechanics, and what Blizzard Hopes (or at least is trying to) to accomplish is break down the barrier that makes each class outclass the other. Such as, you don’t Always need a Pally tank to beat a Time Trial, or, you don’t need a War Tank just to tank that last boss in Gruul’s (i can’t use a more future known boss just yet).

Each Class has it’s own set of Strength/Abilities that make each viable for any given situation so far. Living up to hold a Roll in the final situation’s to come, is mostly based on what there original design was intended to be. This has stood through BC and will most likely continue through future expansions to help each class keep there individual roll’s/usefullness.

By Justin aka Stopium on Tuesday, October 14th, 2008 at 2:24 pm

Its ok guys what blizzard wants is to fill the role of the player not the the class, so if that crappy warrior who doesnt show up for raids and barely puts up that tps, doesnt show up boom your rdy and uber tankadin/feral druid will take the spot. I really dont mind because I hate pulling a raid just because some main raiders decided not to show. So GG to the crappy raider.

By Curio on Tuesday, October 14th, 2008 at 7:18 pm

I only just noticed that, hiding under the new exciting skills for Warrior tanks, we’ve had a giant nerf for single target tanking. The combination of Shield Block, Thunderclap and block/parry/dodge stats is what has made us uncrushable (or close to it): Shield Block in essence blocks every attack against a boss for a good Warrior tank. 96-98% is a good approxmiation, when there isn’t some factor causing Shield Block to be out of use (rarely happens). Block the attack, and it won’t be a crushing, even if the raw damage of the attack is only decreased by a few hundred.

Now, Shield Block is suddenly a 60 second CD, 10 second effect skill. 100% block, but 75% got most of us close to 100% in any case. Not useless, but even with two talent points, it leaves us very much crushable for 30 straight seconds at a time. There is no question that the skill in itself has been nerfed, incredibly.

So, unless there are some big nerfs for Paladins and Druids, it seems Druids are suddenly far better single target tanks than Warriors (more mitigation, more avoidance, more health, more threat, more DPS–all we had on them before this was being uncrushable, thus needing less total healing). Paladins might be as well.

In that sense, tank classes have indeed moved a lot closer to each other. I don’t very much like it. Shockwave, Vigilance, and certain threat goodies might be nice, but if it’s at the cost of Shield Block, the game just won’t be as much fun anymore.

By Kurtizzle on Wednesday, October 15th, 2008 at 2:48 am

curio,

Raid bosses wont crush anymore, so that is why certain abilitys appear to be nerfed. All tanks wont be looking to have that 102.4% avoidence/mitigation at all times anymore, however it appears paladins seem to get that post Naxx. Your shield Block also boosts the amount blocked by 100% !!!!

By Jonatan on Wednesday, October 15th, 2008 at 4:54 am

I just wanna make sure,
will warrior tanks get better in Wrath of the lich king?
Because in TBC they really, hmm… Sux, i think,
they got too low threat.

By Bradley on Wednesday, October 15th, 2008 at 8:24 am

I am a warrior tank, and have tanked pretty far into BT. I have to say, from playing last night after 3.0 was dropped, I am stoked. Damage shield + enrage are my new best friends. Shockwave is awesome too for that initial AOE aggro and stack that with thunder clap and go into normal rotations and you are now an AOE tank.

I also noticed my damage output in tank gear is increased for burst damage since rage is now gained easier. Revenge also has a change to give you a free shield slam. I can’t begin to explain how happy I am about all this.

I went out today, and AOE pulled mobs in my tanking gear and killed them almost as fast as in my DPS gear (both sets are epic t5 equiv + BT + Hyjal).

Anyways, with all that being said, there is NO WAY a warrior can have the same TPS as a Pally or a druid. We just have better ways to aoe tank now in the places were we don’t have assistance from those two classes. I don’t think any other classes of tanks should be scared. If anything, you should be happy!

By Garviel on Wednesday, October 15th, 2008 at 11:10 am

I have to say as terrified as I was, after playing for awhile after Patch3.0 went live, I’ve seem to become a bit more powerful at my current level 59 Prot Spec’d Paladin, than I was pre patch. I still am not comfortable that I allocated everything optimally, and I ended up with a slightly different allocation in each tree than before, but it seems to be working okay, and I may adjust as time goes on.

I REALLY like that Holy Wrath is instant cast now also.

By Redscalp on Thursday, October 16th, 2008 at 4:07 pm

I’ve tanked all my way up to level 70, as warrior. Even in the starting instances like blackfathom deeps or razorfen kraul, tanking has been pretty damn good fun. Even though it’s a bit stressful at times, it’s the most fun thing I’ve ever done in the time I’ve played wow.

Before the patch, warrior tanks HAD to change target like all the time, because thunderclap alone was never enough to keep aggro of multi shotting hunters and all that crap. That’s what made it stressful mostly, but also most fun if you managed to do it right.

Now, I can pull with ranged, use charge, cast thunderclap and shockwave and keep using those two, and I can easily keep aggro off anything, while still shield slamming main target, of course. I feel a lot like a paladin without healing or blessings, being able to aoe, not having to worry about targets accidently running off to smash a hunter… OK, mashing the main target and dealing more damage is all nice, but I rolled a warrior tank because the “hardly any aoe thing” made it harder then paladins, so now blizzard removed that… what’s left huh?

So… I can keep “crying” about that for ages, but after all, it’s a game, have fun! I’ll keep on tanking, not using shockwave so much because I love the switching target thing

(blizz really messed up shield block though)

By deathkar on Tuesday, October 21st, 2008 at 10:39 pm

This is a response to Nextgener. You are right ni the aspect that all tanks will have their strengths over other classes but warriors will NOT be the main end game tanks. I’m sorry but you are dead wrong. Druids in beta were leaps and bound above warriors and all other tanks for total mitigation earlier in beta and the recent nerf has normalized it all somewhat but since all the tank shave near equal total dmg reduction warriors will not be chose over any other class simply because they are a warrior. Just like paladins will not be the chose aoe tank anymore. Blizz has made the tanking game about character skill not about class chosen anymore. I am a little biased, being a bear tank, however, i can agree that a skilled paladin will aoe tank better than other classes of the same skill and a DK will take less magic dmg than someone of the same gear lvl and skill as well. But as for a normal tank and spank fight, it will be a toss up as to see who will tank. It can go to anyone and based mainly on gear level and skill with class being minimally important. Other factors being taken into account is threat generation. If the MT for a guild in BC was a warrior and he held agro fine that was good and dandy., people dealt with it bc they had the advantage over other tanks. Now in Wrath if a warrior cant produce a good amount of threat people can choose a different tank such as a druid. Druids will always be the highest single target producer in the game. This reason is because if they reduce our damage too much feral pvp will not be viable anymore. It’s based on other coponents of the game too. Take every factor into account that dosnt even have to do with raiding. Now a warrior will have less threat for more total mitigation while a druid or paladin takes more steady dmg. The point of this rant is that what you say about tanks have their strengths is true, but only true to the point where gear and skill is equal.

Oh and one quick question. What do u mean by dps tank=druid? Because in my eyes that is a complete oxymoron. You do not tank to put out dps. And if you are tanking for the sole purpose of higher threat that means the other tanks arent producing enough threat and blizz has already thought that through by making total mitigation evenly distributed.

Anyhoo. Thanks for listening people. Cant wait for wrath.

By Feralface on Thursday, October 23rd, 2008 at 3:04 pm

God hates pally tanks. Durids ftw!

By Tinneas on Friday, October 24th, 2008 at 2:44 pm

I have loved the changes that have come with the recent patch, but I don’t see a total homogenization yet. I may be pretty biased since I’ve played a prot pally the whole way up, but what I’ve seen so far is that the good parts of being a pally tank were given away without getting a whole lot back in return with respect to gaining skills of other classes. Everything being instant cast makes much more sense and if blessing of sanctuary were a person I would marry them and raise a whole litter of little blessings of sanctuary.

The new patch has opened up a lot of content that was originally just out of reach for my guild as we started raiding late in the game. Pre patch, we were just scratching the surface of Tier 5 getting down all of TK outside of Kael and downing Hydross and Lurker. Now we’ve totally cleared all of TK, SSC, and just downed all bosses in Hyjal up to Archimonde. As a pally tank, I am the biggest threat generator in our guild in raids. I peak at 3000+ tps greatly outdoing druids and warriors even when I’m not the one being hit. On the last phase of kaelthas our blessed warrior tank bit the bullet early on which left me to MT him the rest of the fight.

I greatly welcome the changes made and the few more incoming changes to the classes. I still believe there are enough differences between the tanks that they still have utility without being necessary tools. Can’t wait for lvl 75 for the next beast in my tanking rotation.

By Nextgener on Sunday, October 26th, 2008 at 3:38 pm

deathkar:

Well, it’s pretty clear what Class you play. lol

Look, Blizz can change the the aspect of Any class to be Better in any given situation, but that doesn’t mean they can just make Everyone a complete copy of something. Let me break down classes by there role from before expansions.

___________________________________________

Druid Tanks: A Multi Functioning Tank that could be acquired for any given situation (healer/dps/tank). Noted to be one of the most unique class in game, there ability to handle any given situations has made them one of the most viable PVE/PVP (mostly pvp in many aspects) Classes to note. With the only lacking function seeming to posses is a fear.

In BC: Continuing there legacy trough BC, Wars have been one of the most enjoyed Multi class type to have in Any given group. There Ability to maintain Aggro was nearly as good as a paladin, along with there DPS being Slightly above in end game situations. However, with the lack of a stat missing (block), being one of the few things causing a tank to become Uncrushable, they were denied most opportunity’s to become end game tanks. Most people Defied this factor, and with hard work became noted end game tanks. The most Notable thing of a Druid tank is there High Health (doubling any warrior or paladin tank could ever dream of) made them almost presentable in anyway.

That being said, a Druid tank has always had Several stats required for tanking (dodge/parry/ap/stam) With most of there Ability’s complimenting each other in such a way, each druid could customize themselves in multiple gear (as high as leather goes) giving there DPS Second to none to most Pally tanks, and almost around levels of nearly Warlock/Shaman DPS.

WOTLK: the words, OP, are not surprising around this time (you should have seen doomkins on the beta). Still remaining a Top DPs class, and almost all tanks becoming AOE tanks, makes them a near top healing class. Theres alot to note in the changes of mechanics to spells, however all classes have had a difference in this case. To note, Almost all class have AOE tank ability. However, only 2 classes Continue to use Shields. Mitigating all tanking ability’s to the end.

To say “Druids can’t End Game tank” because of this factor would be bias. However, as it has become more and more difficult to even out each class with it’s own abilities/talents, the ability to seem almost the same in any situation is a given. However, once the time comes for the time comes, the difference will be notable as to what is required/needed for said situation.

As druids are Still Multi form situation handlers, Paladins are still Hybrid Crosses between 3 main classes, as tanks are War’s are still (and will most likely continue to be) Meat Shields.

___________________________________________

Paladins Tanks: What can be said at this time that hasn’t already been said. They can be a close range DPS class, a Healing class, or one of the greatest AOE classes in game and, if your experienced enough, a combo of the 2.

In BC: Mainly the Same. Most wanted (and needed in some cases) as a Healing And Tanking class (dps was lacking in ret though). Strong, versatile, and an improvement to mana control. The only issues noted? The requirement for a level of Spell control, at most times interfered with normal tanking stats, such as Strength/Stam. Therefore, a high level of gear was required for situations that required Tanking on bosses and becoming uncrushable. Yet still, because of there Amazing AOE capability, there requirement in Dungeons/Raids was almost Necessary at time (time trials being the main factor). However, even through tough situations, they prevailed to be the best tanks in this new expansion.

WOTLK: After being considered the Best, the thought of Change may strike Fear and dread in most paladins planning to become tanks in the upcoming expansion. This fear should soon be put to rest, as Although the mechanic may be the different, it’s been improved to be, dare I say, Better.

The ability to survive long standing 1 on 1 combat has Drastically increased, allowing them to focus on the things the stats they weren’t originally supposed to focus on. In this accord, Paladins can mock up to being Still, either the Best AOE/DPS Tanks in game, or match a War on 1 on 1 Survivability.

___________________________________________

War Tanks: Noted to be the best single target tank for End Game situations. Unlimited tanking aspects (rage) help through long winded fights that with the highest amount of dodge/block/parry rating.

In BC: The tanking mechanic was kept the same, however this didn’t always turn out to be a good thing as most situations necessary for game progression called for high ends AOE. There were alot of conflicts with getting AOE tanks as well (pallys becoming top healers). So the mechanic was only truly needed up to a real end game situation, and where threat/ mitigation became strong around the highest level gear in game.

WOTLK: Threat mitigation has been partially sacrificed for more AOE capability’s and DPS. In comparison, the modern Wrath tank can be called a Cross between a Rogue/Pally. Versatile and still with unending tank ability. There viability to survive in more PVE/PVP situations has Drastically increased (most people could say they finally fixed them), and there ability to over come any given situation has been evened out. However, though the mechanic may have changed, the Need for Stat Ability (block/dodge/parry) for situations in raiding has not changed. Being one of the best mitigation classes with an unending ability to hold there ground 1on 1 has kept the War tank as one of the most viable end game tanks as of yet. And will most likely continue.

___________________________________________

In short, Each Tank/Class has it’s own Unique abilities that differentiate themselves from other class. It’s Because of these differences that cause Any class to be Wanted in game. If the case was, “everyone should be the same” Then u could take a Shadow Priest over a Warlock to raid because he brings Buffs.

Each Tank will have it’s Differences/Designs that make them Slightly different from other tanks. To the point where you can’t say “Ones Better” or “Ones Worst”. Just different in the designs that they originally had.

By Wesley on Friday, October 31st, 2008 at 9:55 am

I like the changes they made. I think I’ll actually be able to enjoy leveling prot in WotLK with all that dmg. output. I think it will also make PvP more attractive, as a prot warriors used to just be annoying little distractions rather than fighting forces. Devestate, shield slam, devestate, enrage procs, sword and board procs, devestate = dead enemy!

I applaud Blizz for their changes to warrior, and I look forward to WotLK content =D

By Troy Moreno on Wednesday, November 12th, 2008 at 1:46 pm

k0287bp671qrsnvz

By Ghroonar on Monday, December 29th, 2008 at 12:58 am

I liked back before BC and after BC where warriors and paladins were tanks. When i go into a group and someone says we need a tank i look for one of those two classes. That is how i like it, it is just a pet peve of mine i guess you can say. Now with DK’s out and every single person i have seen that have a DK and have tanked, now trying to make a prot warrior or paladin or a feral tanking druid is now pointless. Like every group i have been in. are just DPSing instances now.

Now with wrath out and blizz making it to were any class can tank an instant is just dont make this game fun that much anymore. i worked hard on my warrior. he might not be the best geared but i worked hard on tanking with him and figuring out how i am going to tank multiple mobs. Now with all that work i did with him was all for nothing. a warrior or a paladin or a druid might as well sit on the side lines and have one of the other classes tank now. since blizzard is making it that way.

I dont know what else to say on the subject, when i saw the video where a rogue took on mother from BT that is where i went like. hmmm…..well now a rogue can tank mother. just need the right stats. well with thoughs kind of stats he could also tank illidan stormrage and all the bosses in the game of wow.