Posted by Bastosa on Thursday, March 5th, 2009 - 35 Comments
Tags: achievement, drakes, Mount, obsidian sanctum, progression, raiding, sarth 3d, sartharion, title, twilight vanquisher
In all my time raiding in WoW I have not seen an issue quite as polarizing as the Sartharion Encounter in The Obsidian Sanctum with all three drakes left alive (commonly called Sarth 3D.) This has been especially true in my guild lately as it is the last major hurtle we still have to overcome.
This encounter is commonly regarded as the most challenging fight in the current end game, and is something only a handful of guilds have accomplished. The incentive for winning this encounter is an achievement, an awesome title, and a rare mount that will only drop in this encounter. For me, there is also the sense that you have beat the hardest fight in the end game, but for many that is not enough.
See, there has been a lot of debate in my guild if this is something worth striving for. The guild has been split sharply into two separate camps. One camp, the camp I am a member of says: yes, this is important. My reasoning is simple. It is progression, it is the only fight we have yet to win, and I want to win it!
The second camp says: no, its is not worth all the time and resources we put into it. They say it is not progression, as it does not add any usable gear to the loot table, there are no new bosses behind him, and downing him will not help us at all in Ulduar. Essentially they see it as an achievement and nothing more.
While I am full aware that the 3 drake loot table adds no gear over the 2 drake loot table, I am going to have to express my opinion against camp 2. For me, raiding has never been about the loot. I’ve downed hundreds of bosses without the benefit of receiving loot personally. I play the game to overcome challenges. More importantly overcome challenges with my friends and guildmates. That’s why I play the game, to do something fun and challenging! This is the last challenge left for our guild.
Now I am aware that people have different priorities in this game. Some like raiding more than others. I for one love raiding and am not bothered by wiping for hours on end, as long as it is a means to an end. Some people clearly are bothered by it, it can be frustrating, and more importantly expensive (repair bills aren’t cheap!).
While we continue to grind away, and I am hopeful we are close, there is an undercurrent of internal conflict on every pull. For me it seems that Sarth 3D is something you have the motivation for or you don’t. My guild is unfortunately split on the issue. How about you guys? Is this a worthy goal, a waste of resources, or something you got out of the way a long time ago?
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By kiley on Thursday, March 5th, 2009 at 6:27 pm
i have to say that for me loot has never been my number one issue. I like the challenge of a new boss, or new raid to try and beat as well. Loot generally is something we just naturally pick up as you progress in raids. (definitely a nice reward for downing the said bosses imo). Anywho, Sarth 3D to our guild is a challenge we’re looking to overcome together.
By kiley on Thursday, March 5th, 2009 at 6:27 pm
oh and first
By Mike Fahy on Thursday, March 5th, 2009 at 6:29 pm
First?
also, Sarth + 3D is definately something worth striving for imo, who cares about the gear, honestly?
By Dr.Slayer on Thursday, March 5th, 2009 at 6:29 pm
ya i understand where you are coming from the progression from the boss can be seen in different sides. I am on your side of this i’d like the feeling that i downed all the things in your way.
By Davisu on Thursday, March 5th, 2009 at 6:30 pm
Im like you bast me and my guild are at the point where Sarth 3D is the only thing left in the game we have done sarth2D and have spent nights wipeing on sarth 3D yes the repairs are high but thats why we grind and i cnt wait for the glory at the end of the road and to ware my title with pride knowing i have done something that few have done and, knowing when gained this title all 25 people in the raid were working as 1 unit and even that is something im happy to be appart of,
By Alayea on Thursday, March 5th, 2009 at 6:42 pm
Well, it’s something I don’t have to be concerned about. Me finding a pug for Sarth 3D? NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.
Can’t do it with my guild either because nearly all of them aren’t even geared for Naxx 10, so… *shrug*
By Irishi on Thursday, March 5th, 2009 at 6:47 pm
I think the people who believe that it isn’t “progression” are probably the same people who, when BC was new, decided they’d jump right into 25-man content before doing Kara. Would anyone else think they could do HK Mulgore before doing Opera-Chrone? These things test guilds/groups to make them prove they have the ability to progress. The single fact that there is no extra loot for Sarth 3D isn’t the reason why guilds grind out this event. They do it to further themselves in an effort to be ready for Ulduar, and the numerous “Hard Modes” implemented there. Do it Bast, let ‘em know!!
By nick on Thursday, March 5th, 2009 at 7:00 pm
Sarth + 3D isn’t hard, with all the changes brought about, but it does require knowing when to wipe and when not to…
when sadron and vesperon are up, people will die…. pressing on and keeping at it, will be the only surefire way to kill it…
we dont usually have everyone in the raid up when we down sarth…. but it does help
also your self saves are the most important part of the hectic phase in the 3drake encounter…
3drake is about pride and really testing your raids ability to move and think on there feet…..
dare i say its required to really press forward in content enjoying the newer “Hard” Modes…
By Ozzel's Cousin Fred on Thursday, March 5th, 2009 at 7:00 pm
My guild is split on it - though we’re trying to get through 25 man naxx before Ulduar hits (Thaddius and Razuvious still give us major headaches). Atm we get 1 drake down on 10 and don’t even try on 25. It’s just more important to get whatever we can down in Naxx. Since we’re a more casual guild progression is far less stable for us (people sit out often enough that gearing up is difficult, especially with the way drops sometimes just don’t work out)
By Taskun on Thursday, March 5th, 2009 at 7:08 pm
I don’t really understand why normally people that have say a 50/50 chance of winning something in like a WoW raid will typically not try (even like a 65/35) only because of the possible repair bill and drama….I understand as far as the drama…but I have to ask, why the drama?
We play a game and your telling me you only want to play if we win? or have a very good chance of doing so? That I just don’t understand….I guess if it was hopeless but that is usually not the case.
I guess my point is, WoW is a game, why not play it like one? Not a job, not an annoyance, bla bla bla. Play it if you want to, and don’t bother people who just want to have fun.
By Ayameth on Thursday, March 5th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
This divison in camps in your guilde reminds me of those who before acheivements raided for the stuff and those who raided for acheiving a goal, and trying difficult things.
Personnaly to manage such a fight in my opinion is a great preperation in its difficulty to ulduar, but that is a question of opinion I think
By Nebyula on Thursday, March 5th, 2009 at 8:45 pm
I hate repeating content ten thousand times, anything with a special twist is what I’ll will strive for =)
By Eventime on Thursday, March 5th, 2009 at 9:57 pm
I did 25 man Sarth with no drakes up as a pug only once so far, and besides that have only cleared half of naxx (this is mostly because of time restraints, not gear restraints). I’d love to say I’ve cleared Sarth with all 3 drakes up but in a pug format that probably will not happen. I think the guilds who are so close to completing it should definitely go for it, because not only does it give you a sense of accomplishment, it really shows how well a group is coordinated.
By barduck on Thursday, March 5th, 2009 at 11:26 pm
actually doing Sarth D with 25 is so much easier then with 10, just look at the numbers. The real challange is really the 10m encounter where every1 has to be on the tip of their toes, not allowing anyone to die because then you’d lack the DPS or the tanks to do it. It’s really all in the setup, altho I’ve never done it yet my guess it makes it easier to have each of the drakes tanked by a feral druid, so that they can switch to dps once their target is dead. Feral druids make massive damage in bearform, more then any other tank with equal gear would and by switching to cat they make evne more so it would make sence to do it like that
By Sean on Friday, March 6th, 2009 at 2:04 am
It is progression?
It might not be progression as far as loot and such go, but your guild are moving up the difficulties.
It’s like, err, playing Guitar Hero 1, getting hard mode done, and not trying your hand at expert.
Then Guitar Hero 2 (ulduar) comes out and you all jump back to medium.
Whereas it should be GH1 expert, then maybe GH2 hard then GH2 expert.
You don’t get to the top to go back down to the bottom and you don’t get half way up the difficulties and move on.
It’s just…weird.
By Tona on Friday, March 6th, 2009 at 6:40 am
Sarth 3D is progression and it is real test of your raid. It sounds to me like the people who don’t want to do it for reasons like time and resources don’t have the commitment to raid. progression raiding takes wipes, it takes flasks, and it takes time.
Let’s be honest with ourselves; the current raids are easy, too easy. The new endgame progression are the achievements: 3D, 6minute Maly, Immortal, etc. Those are the real tests of your raid.
Finally, like Barduck said a few posts up, 10m 3D is many times harder than 25 3D.
I hope you can win over the lazy half of your guild Bastosa, good luck.
Tona
3D prot pally :]
By Skarn on Friday, March 6th, 2009 at 8:45 am
No new loot? It gives a sweet drake mount! That’s good enough loot for me!
Overall, I don’t raid for loot though. I raid because it’s fun. I like to kill bosses, I like to beat challenges. Loot is a great bonus, but it’s not the reason I’m there. Loot is only good for more raiding. If you don’t like the raiding in the first place, what do you need the loot for?
By Jiminimonka on Friday, March 6th, 2009 at 8:52 am
To me, the new achievements in raids is the new end-game - in TBC, killing all the bosses was the end-game, now Blizzard have added the extra hard-mode achievements, so its not just about killing the boss, its also about trying for the 6 minute Malygos kill, the Sartharion 3D, The Immortal, Glory of the Raider etc. It bring a nice new twist to the game.
We have people in my guild with a similar attitude as me and others who are still stuck in TBC mode, and think killing the boss is all that matters. But, we are working on getting everyone singing the same tune, and working on Sartharion 3D Heroic now!
By Simon on Friday, March 6th, 2009 at 9:00 am
imo, just go kill him
unlike some other ppl said, it was really nice to see him drop dead after a whole lot of wiping.
And the next reset, we 1-shotted him
By Raknor on Friday, March 6th, 2009 at 9:41 am
For me, its all about the $$. If im dropping 100g on repairs for one day’s worth of attempts. That makes it not worth it for me.
By Urara on Friday, March 6th, 2009 at 9:58 am
It depends on the raiding guild. If I was a (co)leader of a raiding guild and people began to moan about repair bills it would be a case of “do more dailys to cover your costs or gtfo”. If it’s a casual guild then wiping sarth 3d can be tedious however if it’s a serious raiding guild and people are geared for it then there’s no excuse for not doing it.
By poilbrun on Friday, March 6th, 2009 at 11:07 am
Those kind of decisions are why I stopped raiding. I’m a hardcore raider at heart, but with a casual playing time.
During vanilla WoW, I was in a hardcore raiding guild. We were done with BWL just before the release of AQ. But then, a new job with different schedules mean that it was getting harder and harder for me to go the raids. I would come home from work and immediately sit in front of my computer to play, eating while playing. My wife did not mind too much since she was in the same raid, but after about two months like this, we stopped it.
I came back to the game for BC, and I tried to find a casual raiding guild. To make a long story short, I quit after our first raid. We downed Attumen, did not try Moroes (he’s too hard) and quit on Maiden after three wipes (75%, 40%, 8%) because there was no point spending so long on a boss without getting loot and we should go and try the Spider boss instead.
Since then, my play time is even shorter as we can only start playing around 9.30 pm after we have put our son to bed, later than the start of most raids on our server.
I’d love to still be in a guild that would see conquering hard-modes as a badge of honor to proudly wear. I can’t join a guild where raiding is just the way to get more loot. And yet, I’m at a point where neither of those alternatives are open to me…
Damn, I just reread what I typed… If I saw such a post, I’d reply QQ MOAR… How well, I typed it, I might as well submit!
By Scarzz on Friday, March 6th, 2009 at 11:09 am
I dont c how they dont call it progres?…Sarth 3D is the perfect place to check if u got what it takes, since u got to pay attention to everything have good dps and knowing wth to do…my guild is trying 3D for couple of weeks now and we down 2D ez now…
and if u look at it from Ulduar point of view…If u raid to down 3D u can keep urself busy and only have the most deticated raiders when 3.1 hits
+ title is awesomeness itself
By Lawman30 on Friday, March 6th, 2009 at 11:28 am
Bast take your camp and do 3D 10 man. I agree with the others who have opined that the 10 man is much harder anyway as the margin for error is sooooo much smaller, if not nonexistant. You just can’t lose ANYONE in that fight and expect to win.
Be the ball, Danny. Be the ball.
By Prower on Friday, March 6th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
the questionn is when uldur goes live and the achivment disapears, will you still want to achive Sarth 3D.
does have one boss alive claw away at the back of ur mind, if the answer is yes go for it, be all you can be!
By Dediare on Friday, March 6th, 2009 at 2:48 pm
Dang bastosa id join your guild if i was part of the alliance…. and was on your serever (hehe), my guild kinda sucks and ive QQed alot about it lately. I mean we ahvnt even done a full 10 man naxx run! but i haz alot of RL friends in this guild so im not leaveing. I just wish we’d get better guildies….
By Dediare on Friday, March 6th, 2009 at 2:51 pm
Btw i totally agree on wipeing, i mean it sucks when it happens over and over but ill go on. Many people (excuse this next comment) bich about wipeing and then leave, i fricken hate it. I’d say go for it so your guild can show off, plus i mean a ttile and drake?! hello you all dont have anything else to do before Uldar! go get that drake!
By Dibullba on Saturday, March 7th, 2009 at 1:12 pm
Yes Sarth 3D still proves challenging to my guild as well even though we have accomplished it, but the thing is that it is progression. Let me put this into 2 simple reasons:
1. If ur guild thinks Sarth 1D and 2D is progression because of gear then that still does not lay off 3D as progression
2. The new raid Ulduar is gonna have more than half there bosses with a similar set up as Sartharion, which means that there will be more than one way to do these bosses and will add to the loot table. So if this is what is occuring in what will now be natural progression then people are gonna be more impressed that u went the whole mile rather than saying hey we did the boss thats all there is to it.
By Hatell on Saturday, March 7th, 2009 at 6:07 pm
I can see this from both prospectives. It can get frustrating and I personally know I would have to take a few breaks. However, I enjoy a challenge as well. Learning something new or discovering a way that works for downing a boss. It’s a wonderful experience.
And what do they mean that it’s not going to help in Ulduar? What if there’s a boss fight towards the end that no one has seen before and it has similarities to Sarth 3D? Yet this boss drops a non-tier epic loot item for each class, a tier item for available classes, and something else truly amazing. (The golden egg of all golden eggs and it doesn’t have just chocolate inside it!)
Now your busting your buns to figure this out while guilds that have completed Sarth 3D are flying through it because they know, and realize, this fight is similar.
Just tell them, all fights are learning experiences and you never know when Blizz will pop something into a fight that they’ve done before.
By garg on Saturday, March 7th, 2009 at 6:44 pm
Kick anyone who refuses to do it ‘just because it’s an achievement’. Kick anyone who brings loot into a conversation about progression. People like that will only hold you back and you will just find yourself, months later, after everything has been nerfed and the achievements removed from the game, wishing you could stab people in the face over the Internet.
Think of it this way: achievements, titles, pets, whatevers … these are the only semi-meaningful things that will be left to mark the time you spent in the game. Without these you might as well uninstall WoW and get on with your life.
By Deathmoon on Sunday, March 8th, 2009 at 6:07 am
Its the best fight of all you people dont want to down sarth+3d they are missing a whole lot of fun, cus this fight test you in all the possible ways (survival, dps/tank/healer), you most know what to do there without the help of the others. For me I would say if uldaur will have something simillar to this i will be happy.
By B-Naka on Sunday, March 8th, 2009 at 5:04 pm
Honestly, if you’ve tried it more than once and enough people that you call them a ‘camp’ think you can’t do it, your guild is probably just too full of nubs to pull it off. Maybe it is a waste of time.
Sarth 3D isn’t that difficult or complex. It just requires that everyone know what to do and not stand in the fire. Is everyone in 25-man gear? Does everyone know their class? Does DPS know how not to stand in the fire? It’s a likely win. You just can’t have weak links is all.
It’s the difference between guilds that will down progression raids and those that will have to wait until Blizz pity nerfs it into reach for them.
By Icycool on Thursday, March 26th, 2009 at 7:13 pm
I think a title and mount is a good reward over loot and that making and loot would be a unfair advantage over the people that can’t get it down also the mount and title will last for a long as you play and loot is replaced all the time
By Kalgorn on Friday, April 3rd, 2009 at 9:45 am
I can’t add anything to this. My guild has only ever tried Sartharion + 1D. It took us 8 or 9 wipes before we finally did it, but i’ve never tried it with 2D or even 3D.
By Rasun on Thursday, July 2nd, 2009 at 7:14 pm
Have any of u guys SEEN the Twilight Drake? I would cut off my leg with a rusty, dull saw to get that awsome looking thing.