Posted by Bastosa on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 - 79 Comments
Tags: buffed, design, DPS, hybrid, nerf, pure
Ghostcrawler made an interesting comment on the official forums the other day which has sparked lots of conversation lately. In a thread discussing DPS among the different classes. He states:
Our logic is actually pretty simple. If hybrid classes can do the same dps as pure classes, then why have pure classes in the game? So we design the pure classes to do slightly higher dps.
He continues on to say that they define slightly as somewhere around 5%.
The debate is around if this should be the case - should some DPS roles be higher than others by design?
This is something I have debated with my friends on and off for years now. I remember one particular instance where a fury warrior friend went on a screaming tirade about how Ret Pallys need to be nerfed and how one class shouldn’t be able to “do it all.”
As someone who plays a class that can “do it all,” it is hard for me to say. In the end I do think I agree with GC. There should be a reward for giving up flexibility. It seems like the easy conclusion to make, but I do feel like I need to play devil’s advocate a bit here. There are downsides to playing the hybrid classes, among them are having to collect and maintain all the gear sets (I think we all know a druid with 8 gear sets) as well as deal with all of the respec fees. After all, while hybrid classes can take on multiple roles, they cannot do them all at the same time!
That being said if you want to do as much DPS as possible, it only makes sense that you should roll a pure DPS class. There is something to be said about a pure class with one designed role, and there are actually not many of them in the game.
For me I enjoy the flexibility that hybrid classes allow. Where do you stand on the issue?
Related Posts: Why Stop At Dual Specs?, Shaman, Paladin, Druid, Blizzard Needs A Central Information Repository,
By billybob on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
first comment i think
yeah i totally agree
By Byktoz on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
Interesting…I like hybrid classes, they can do any role. But really think that 5% more DPS for pure classes is actually a right thing. I mean, Paladins/Druids/Shamans are a “do it all” class as you said. And pure classes get boring when compared to hybrids.
ohh and First! xP
By Notlob on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
I agree with that. I think that people make the choice to roll a hybrid because if they want to try healing or tanking instead of DPS, they can, without having to level an alt. Those who can only DPS should have a slight increase because of their limited options.
By Byktoz on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
ohh nvm lol….second though =P
By Cypherblok on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 12:18 pm
Wow, GC totally contradicted his very own company on his own statement. If this is the case, they need to be looking at the pure dps classes and trying to fix the lack of DPS some are putting out. The rogue for the perfect example, I know quite a few rogues in my guild battling for 4th and 5th below Ret pallies, DK’s, and Fury wars constantly. He needs to learn the truth before putting up such a moronic statement.
By Kalgorn on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
Yes. Most deffinatley. it only makes sense for the DPS classes to do a higher amount of DPS. With that being said, i know the Hunter is going to be put on the front lines and we’ll have a brief period of time amazing ourselves at how high our DPS shot up.
Then, by next patch, there will be countless complaints that the Hunter is OP and, we’ll be back where we are now. Over-Nerfed.
By Lastwish on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
I agree with this, however it does not seem the case in the game at the moment. I have a rogue which I left as soon as patch 3.0.1 landed, because of the horrible hit they took. I now play a Paladin and I have to say I prefer my Rogue but I feel there is no reason playing one right now because they are a joke.
By Silver on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
I agree that pure dps classes should be able to do more dps then hybrid classes, and from what i’ve seen rogue’s are the one class that i see below the hybrid classes consistantly. I say this because just because a hybrid class is always on the top of the DPS charts doesn’t mean that they have the capacity to put out more DPS then a pure class.
A lot of it comes down to not only gear but knowing your rotation for your spec and class. Even knowing this and being evenly geared I know some rogues in my guild that are always below hybrid classes, while other pure classes can fight them for the top spot. For the most part I think the pure classes are doing more dps then hybrids as long as their on even ground.
By QQ on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
I agree with above. I play a Ret pally and i can easily out dps any “dps only” class, it would make sense if the aforementioned case was true unfortunately as of right now, its not, not even close.
By Nazgroo on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
As a hunter, I agree with Blizz (duh).
I think giving the pure DPS classes a boost to deeps is a great incentive to play one. I mean, I’m not complaining about my DPS. I’m the only MM speced hunter in our guild and I out DPS the rest of them… by a lot. I’m just saying, when you’re watching your DPS get destroyed in Naxx by a ret pally and then after a boss you watch him pick up heal loot for off-spec you can’t help but wonder, “Why am I doing this? I could roll a utility class, be duel-specing by next patch and enjoying more aspects of the game!”
I, however, will not do this. My first toon was a shammy and I got him to 70 before I made the choice to switch to my lowbie hunter. I got him leveled and geared before Wrath and I haven’t looked back or had more fun.
Maybe I just feel we pure breeds deserve a little icing on the cake for what we chose to pass up by rolling a single function class. I mean, thats what we’re here for.
Great work Lore dudes! Keep it up!!!
By Snaggly on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
@ Cpherblock - Maybe the rogues you know aren’t as good as playing as the Ret’s, DK’s and Fury warriors. Just because a class has higher potential doesn’t mean that they are going to be higher DPS.
I personally feel that a pure DPS class should get a slight bump over hybrid classes.
By kiley on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 12:40 pm
I’m just going put my two cents in from the damage meter side of things when our guild does our naxx runs. DK’s usually come out in the top three. On my fury warrior i’ve had little trouble keeping up with them (well see if this continues after 3.1 and the TG nerf >.<) A warlock always seems to hit the high end of the dps charts as well as our hunter. The classes who seem to be doing there very best to dps in this game but can’t touch the DK’s and are struggling against the other classes are always the rogues and mages. Which are both pure dps classes. Rogues have been having woes ever since Wrath came out and to be honest i stopped playing my rogue alt cause i haven’t seen much future in the class at the moment. I personally agree completely with GC that pure dps classes should be able to out dps us who’ve got the option to be tank or healer. Does that mean I won’t be able to rock out some awesome numbers on my Fury warrior? maybe so but i do think the dps classes need some 3.1 lovin’ imo. (let’s just hope GC remembers that DK’s are a HYBRID CLASS TOO ^_^)
By Baek on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
I am sort of up in the air about this. Wile, yes I do play a paladin as a main and have 3 different sets of gear and can tank/heal/dps, I can’t do all that at the same time. Yeah I can take some hits speced as either, but you wouldn’t see me taunting mobs or bosses because I can’t tank a 25 man raid boss as a ret paladin. Yes a “pure dps class” can’t tank or heal like I can with a respec, but then again, I’m paying to respec, gem, and enchant all my three sets of gear so it does cost me in the end.
And similar to how things went in the past with a ret paladin (I know this isn’t quite the case now but bear with me) their DPS was intentionally sub par because they were hybrids, and as such, was shunned by the wow community for the longest time. While we now provide a lot of utility, being lower on damage output and hitting an enrage timer just because you can toss out some gold to spec differently and grab another gear set and you can heal or tank doesn’t sit right with me. If you are there to DPS, you should be able to keep up with the other people who are there to DPS (allowing for a slight offset for utility of course).
Like Bastosa said, there are downsides to playing a hybrid. Just because I can spec something other than protection doesn’t mean I want to. Often times people that play hybrids can get pigeon holed into one of their possible specs just because they can.
While I do agree that classes should be balanced, they should be balanced around damage output vs. utility not the fact that they can be a tank if they spend 50G in respec fees and dump money into another set of gear if they feel like it. There are plenty of people who will nt build offsets or spec anything besides Ret because they don’t want to play anything other than DPS.
By alex on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
Im playing a ele shammy and hybrid classes dont have half of my total damage… the problem it is with the loot.a pally gets items for holy,prot and retri in the same raid .. the reason is (for off spec) ya sure.i dont know how all shammys over here are doing but only hunters and worlocks can beat me.i dont give a fuck on retri pallys they realy suck in pve.
By Sean on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
I agree with that.
Rogues, Hunters and Mages can’t heal themselves (well, conventionally).
Druids, Shamans, Shadow Priests, Paladins can, whilst doing DPS.
So it’s only fair, really. =/
It’s like if they were to bring out a pure-healer as the next Hero class, I’d expect them to be (and stay) better than other healers because it would be far more difficult to level as one.
Just my two cents.
By Feydakin on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
I totally agree with that. One counter-point to Bastosa’s “Devil’s Advocate” argument, because I hear that all the time… My Shaman might be speced Enhancement, but he can still heal, and still throw bolts of lightning. Granted, not as good as he could if he were speced for those trees, but he can do it. With the introduction of dual specs, it will be even less of an issue because you can essentially change from DPS to Healer with a button click. Granted you need to have the gear, but what decent Hybrid raider these days doesn’t have multiple gear sets? Pure DPS classes should do the highest DPS, period… I even think 5% is too little.
By Ozzel's Cousin Fred on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
I play a level 80 mage pimped out epics (363 days played). I also play a level 80 ret pally modestly geared (30 ish days played).
Both are DPS. Ret pally dies half as much as the mage does, in worse gear. In Wintergrasp my ret pally can hold off 5-10 alliance by itself, where my mage just dies horribly.
Imo 5% more dps for being a “pure” class is insufficent given the loss of survivability that many pure classes take by not being able to self heal.
By Rasmus on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 12:49 pm
I am shaman, and I feel alright about all the pure dps’ can pwn me in dps ( in most cases) since I can go resto from time to time. And that is how it should be! imo.
By Ozzel's Cousin Fred on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 12:50 pm
I’ve fought off hordes of mobs as a pally that would’ve shredded my mage. Mage is supposed to be “better aoe” but isn’t really, esp since the instant damage coefficents scale poorly.
Changes to Arcane Barrage and Molten Armor are going to seriously hurt mages in ways that Blizzard probably doesn’t anticipate. As is, because healers can wear resilience, and have a lot of anti silence and anti CC abilities, I find my epic’d out mage struggles to kill them with mediocre CC and interrupts, and survivability. Whereas my pally can smack smack dead most everything now.
On the tournament realm, the spiritless gear makes arcane mages struggle to PVP in actual PVP gear. Making them extremely squishy and borderline unplayable because they OOM while fighting healers.
Hybrids (esp druids +shamans) can out CC, match DPS, and heal in a better armor class than my mage, so as a pure DPS I feel 5% more dps just does not cut it - especially having seen how powerful even undergeared ret pallies or DKs can be in comparison.
By Alex on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 12:56 pm
When wow and other mmorpg started, there was a statement untold: Do not make any class to be nerfed.
Wow failed, now this is just a thing to make waves, a bone for the forum people.
Sorry, but wow sucks a lot, where are the hard mechanics for each boss(this was actually statement: “Each and every boss, elite or event will have a totally unique mechanic.”)?
Where is the motivation to play with nerfed classed(”I need that for x specc, that to and that”)?
I hope someday, near future, when wow will such so much, that those players with hibrid classes will say: “Ok, we have 10 paly, let’s go in naxx.” you all will say:”wow sucks”.
By Alphadoom on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 12:58 pm
i have read some of the comments pretaining to rouges, rouges as stated in the hand book you get with the game. are the most leathal class in the game, and as far as pvp goes they are. i seen rouges kill palldins,dk, warriors, before the stun has wore off. rouges are a pvp class that is where they shine. if you want them stronger in pve prepare for a pvp nerf. they cant be good at everything.
By Kanop on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
I’m a hunter. And Of course… I completely disagree with this! Just because a class is a “do it all” class, doesn’t mean that they should be punished for it. IMO there should be less or not any penalty at all.
By Infinitum on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
I’m all for pure classes having slightly higher dps, I mean they are, afterall, pure dps. But with what this user said:
Cypherblok: “…If this is the case, they need to be looking at the pure dps classes and trying to fix the lack of DPS some are putting out. The rogue for the perfect example, I know quite a few rogues in my guild battling for 4th and 5th below Ret pallies, DK’s, and Fury wars constantly. He needs to learn the truth before putting up such a moronic statement.”
I have a problem with this, I’ve seen some very good rogues do awesome dps and beat pallies and DKs and such. Maybe it’s the rogues in your guild that need to learn how to better gear, and spec themselves, and learn better spell/ability rotations?
DKs aside, Blizzard can’t make a bad player do some magical guaranteed dps. It’s up to the player to learn to min/max to maximize his or her own dps.
By havtor on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 1:07 pm
ozzel’s in my experiance undergeared DK’s do alot less dmg then those so is geared only class i can see need better raid dps is rogue and undergeared ret pallys dont do to mutch dmg infact you shude be able to out dps out threat him as mage and this is PVE not pvp if you talk of PVP then you as mage shude have no problem vs a pally
its all of knowing wath to do. + now its alot in gear to.
By Pete the Geek on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
Coming from someone who played a rogue first, then moved over to a shammy, then a paladin, I can say that I’m firmly against DPS differences.
People will complain and say “why roll a rogue when a ret pally can do just as much dps?”
And to that I answer: playstyle.
It’s not about the stupid numbers. You play a class because the class is fun to play. People get so competitive about the meters. Just lighten up and play the class you like. If you like playing as a pally, play as a pally. If you like playing as a rogue, play as a rogue. Both have upsides, both have downsides. For instance, as a rogue you’ll never be asked to heal or tank, you’ll never have to collect as much gear, you’ll never get people yelling at you to buff them… etc.
All dps specs should have equal damage. It goes both ways - why roll a ret pally if a rogue does more dps? Balance them all out and let playstyle and personal preference decide.
By Ishtokill on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 1:13 pm
Seems to me they are trying to all people rolling hybrids seems odd to me as since the start of wow the trend has usually been that hybrids are often the lowest played classes so this seems a rather superfluous measure against something that isn’t likely to happen.
The statistics and trends so far in the 5 years of wow all seem to claim that they apparently need to make some hybrids more appealing notably druids i wonder how pala populations will shift if they are ever balanced for pvp since it seems to me alot of people are in it for ret and holy pvp ownage atm.
By kiley on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
i know i already threw my two cents in from the damage meter side of things (mainly just as it ends up after a guild naxx run), but Pete the geek does have a very solid point and i’m not saying which side is right (whether to increase the pure dps damage or not) but it’s food for thought.
By Football Rumours on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
Having equal dps for hybrids means lazy players, you’re not going to get into the hybridness of the roll, you’re a hybrid because you want to do many things, not specialise.
By Unknown-Man on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 1:38 pm
I would agree even though my main is a ret pally. It would encourage more dps class to join rather than having most shammy, pallys and druids on raids that can do the same damage as pure dps classes.
By Percolatte on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
I have a Rogue stuck at level 61, because quite frankly, I get embarrassed every time I take him into a dungeon. It’s not a lack of skill, something is seriously borked.
By srmccoy on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
Here’s my take:
Hybrid classes can fill multiple roles. In the case of Druids and Paladins, they can tank/heal/dps. Warriors and Death Knights can tank/dps. Shaman/Priests can DPS/heal.
Rogues, Warlocks, Mages, and Hunters can only do one thing: DPS. They cannot change spec and gear and fulfill a different role in a group. When you invite one of them, you get what you get.
So, how fair is it that hybrids can do the same job as a dedicated DPSer when they have all of these other options? It’s not.
I have a Warlock and Death Knight (tank), both level 80. When putting together a group, there are certain guidelines I have. For instance: I will always choose a dedicated DPS player for my dps slots over a hybrid class. So basically, if there is a choice between a Rogue and a Shadow Priest or a Fury Warrior, the nod will always go to the Rogue.
Nothing is more frustrating than looking for a group for a heroic, needing a healer and seeing 3 Shaman and 2 Priests in LFG with notes that read “DPS.” Then, they seem insulted when you ask them if they have a healing set available, or worse they haven’t even bothered to put one together at all.
If you play a hybrid class, you should really be prepared to do whatever job your class can do that fulfills the needs of the group/raid. In my guild, players volunteer to respec to fill the needs of the group with no complaint. In return I gladly pay the cost and extra for their inconvenience. I know some players don’t like to play certain roles, but I do appreciate it when they’re willing to do it to make things work.
By Alii on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
I think that pure dps should be slightly higher. If I’m going to toss a heal or two with my maelstrom (I play a shammy) then I am willingly sacrificing my dps for the ability to keep the healers from being completely swamped. I’ve always been a little miffed that they take _away_ utility to put in more dps for hybrids when I prefer doing other stuff than standing on at someone’s ass and then trying to hand it to them for a boring ten minutes of rotation.
And… well… ret pallies have their own issues that deal with how the class is constructed and Blizz just hasn’t hit on the correct way to ‘fix’ them to bring them back in line without nerfing them into the ground.
Playing a hybrid, I’ve found that I don’t mind not being the top dps because, oh hey, I put my effort into making sure we succeed… not wipe because I’m playing the ‘I’m winning on threat’ game. I don’t mind collecting lots of gearsets, nor respeccing, nor other ‘drawbacks’. I have high survivability and adaptability and I prefer that to other playstyles.
By saxonn on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
I really dont know where to stand on this. I’m a ret pally and i pull pretty consistant numbers genrally 6th or 7th on recount, and i sorta agree that pure DPS should have alittle bit of a DPS boost on hybrids.
It just pains me to know that i will never be able to beat our skilled hunters or locks when i finally get as geared as they are, its like hitting that brick wall that you will never over come ya know.
By Hasoondi on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
I do like how Pete the Geek put it plainly as play style cause that is what the game is really all about . A person is suppose to go to the store pick up WoW and go “Oh sweet I can play a hunter!” or “I can heal my friends as a priest.” All this damage increase decrease is stupid. Just play the game your way.
By Eugen on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
I honestly like playing both types. Having played for like 2 years a druid i kinda know how it’s like being a hybrid. Though now that I have a hunter I’m really getting the feel of the dps and it’s an extraordinary sensation
By Sathas on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
im not really sure where I stand on this issue because I have a pally and a hunter both at lvl 80 who are equally geared. I don’t really think I would be able to pick one of them to be my “main”
By Anarook on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
This has been a very hot topic lately, not shown here, but elsewhere in the blizzard forums there was a comment about how in BC pure dps classes were sposed to have that much more dps than hybrid classes. But in WOTLK they wanted every class to have nearly the same dps. IMO this is completely ignorant and stupid on blizzards part. 1. it takes the fun out of beign a pure dps class, why be a pure dps when you can be a hybrid and do just as much dmg, and then heal to boot. 2. It takes out the purpose of being a pure dps class, I was in a raid guild who could clear naxx in about 2 and a half hours, we all had the same level of gear, and me as a hunter was sitting at 10 on the dps charts (out of 25). Why should you roll a pure dps class when you can go hybrid and do just as much dmg with bonuses. I personally think blizzard should ignore people complaining about pure dps classes doing too much damage and realize that’s the way its supposed to be. I personally have completely abandoned my hunter because hes useless when every class can do just as much or more damage. To make matters worse, now blizzard is giving the hybrid classes better raid buffs, better than the pure dps classes currently have.. Kick a person while they’re down much?
By Gerandor on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 2:48 pm
This is a very interesting topic.. I agree with GC, that pure classes should do more DPS, and as you say Bast, You have to get more gear sets, and respec all the time. Yes. But if i, as a warlock want to heal, i’ll have to lvl a priest from 1 to 80. I reckon thats alot more work
By Taskun on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
Well imo, hybrid classes were designed to get a little of everything, a jack of “all” trades you have to give the dps only classes a bit of an edge, its only fair.
However, as far as the gear sets mentioned, the same could be said for a dps class, if a mage suddenly wanted to heal, they would have to level an alt and get another set of gear, granted its not the same but you have to admit, the flexibility is nice when it comes to a hybrid. Besides, this update is mostly for the hybrid classes, it dose really nothing more then add a PvE/PvP aspect for DPS classes.
Also, with bliz’s upcoming duel spec they settle the second issue of respecing all the time.
And when you think about it, how many DPS only classes out there get spanked by a hybrid on occasion? Its because a lot of the time it comes down to gear and ability to play your class. The general idea is that if you have a hybrid and a DPS only at 110% gear and know the perfect way to play, the DPS class dose that extra umph of damage…in my prospective its only fair.
By Taskun on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 3:12 pm
Ops! sorry, that last sentence of my 2nd paragraph is for the 3rd paragraph.
Sorry for the double post! :/
By CappyG on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 3:39 pm
All in all I think part of the problem with Hybrid vs. DPS classes is damage meters. Without a damage meter to show total damage and DPS stats the success is purely binary and hinges completely on tactical decisions rather than numerical output. Conclusions about having sufficient heals or dps would be based on experience rather than statistics, and playstyle compatibility would matter.
Another way to look at it is this: if you didn’t have a damage meter to refer to the end result is all that would matter. You beat the encounter or you don’t. Who did more DPS or healing would be irrelevant.
Something to think about: Would your play experience be better if you didn’t have a meter telling you whether or not you meet an arbitrary threshold?
By Dovehill on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 3:50 pm
I’m just gonna say:
where are the “pure” healing classes?
where are the “pure” tanking classes?
By WaVe on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
The argument that you “have to collect and maintain all the gear sets” and “you need to play the respec fee all the time” is absolutely ridiculous. If it bothers you, just don’t have a gear set for that spec.
By Krytus on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 5:26 pm
I totally agree with “Pete the Geek”. I play a Retribution Pally as my main because of playstyle. I’ve also played a resto shammy(80), prot pally(80 yes another pally), mage(72) and rogue(73) so you can say that I’ve had more than a glimpse at pure DPS classes.
A lot of the comments seem to forget about TBC era, where hybrid classes were designed to generate lower DPS. The statement said by srmccoy was our daily bread and butter: “I will always choose a dedicated DPS player for my dps slots over a hybrid class”… If you wanted to raid as a pally, you needed to respecc holy.
If I raid as Retribution, i’m there to fill a DPS spot. It’s not expected that I tank a raid boss or to pick up the healing job on the fly. In a raid enviroment I am not an hybrid, so why do you expect that I deliver less damage than another DPS? Why bring a class that can deliver lower damage output?
I can understand the statement about healing ourserlves in a fight, however be aware that if I toss a heal I’m lowering my DPS, even with an instant cast because it resets my weapon swing timer. So i have a price to pay if I decide to heal myself.
I really don’t understand all that QQ. It´s like saying “I want to top the meters but give me an advantage”. Do you really mind If an hybrid can tank and heal or do you only need an excuse to faceroll your way to the top of the charts?
I’m aware that there are balancing issues right now, but designing around DPS differences its not a solution. Balance all the classes and fight in a fair fight for your place in the meters.
By Fallor on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 7:03 pm
I think it’s about the way you play. A mage as a pure dps class is a whole different play style then let’s say a moonkin, though it’s a caster. You got other spells and rotations and whatever. So I can’t be bothered if some hybrid class has higher dps then my mage. They should be able to when they do better.
By Ozzel's Cousin Fred on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 7:40 pm
having just taken a hateful strike on my mage from patchwerk for 62000 damage during a wipe (MT died) I have to say I am a bit peeved when I get edged out (or dominated) in damage meters by hybrids. If I’m sacrificing THAT much survivability I should get a DPS boost, OR I should get a survival boost esp since my CC is more or less nerfed to oblivion
By Neelyung (Cho'gall) on Wednesday, March 25th, 2009 at 11:33 pm
Before Dual Specs, there’s an argument for Utility classes doing similar deeps to Pure classes.
After Dual Specs, there’s not argument for Utility classes doing similar deeps to Pure classes.
By Aadjed on Thursday, March 26th, 2009 at 1:36 am
hear hear, dovehill
By bold on Thursday, March 26th, 2009 at 2:13 am
you say shamans can do it all but why cant we tank? we can heal and dps not like a druid or a pally personally its not fair and why do fury warrior always top the charts? arnt they hybrid classes in the same bout as shamans?
By bold on Thursday, March 26th, 2009 at 2:13 am
you say shamans can do it all but why cant we tank? we can heal and dps not like a druid or a pally personally its not fair and why do fury warrior always top the charts? arnt they hybrid classes in the same boat as shamans?
By fuetor from naz' grel on Thursday, March 26th, 2009 at 4:28 am
yea i agree but i like to use some hybrid classes because, even though theyre specialized in DPS i can still do, for example, healing like a shaman and paladin or wear plate like a warrior and paladin but i think that pure DS classes should b able to do th most amount of DPS, more than 5% higher than hybrids
By pgp2002 on Thursday, March 26th, 2009 at 9:48 am
Look at it this way… WoW is a lot like rock, paper, scissors. One class can beat another, while another class beats that class, but can’t beat the first. I rolled a shammy and have really enjoyed playing it. I love my hunter too, but since the nerf, I gave up on him. I tried a rogue just for the lock picking, but after the patch gave up on him too. I think to date I have rolled every class, leveled them to at least 20, and I still think my shammy is the best class for my type of play. It all comes down to the roll you want to play in the game. Right now, my shammy is enhancment, but as soon as I can dual spec I’ll def be spec’ing to be a healer, yet keeping my DPS abilities for quests and soloing. Do you think the dual spec ability will “solve” this problem? Do you think it will open up a whole new set of issues? Doesn’t class specific gear play a roll in leveling your DPS vs another class?
By Eric on Thursday, March 26th, 2009 at 10:40 am
All this about DPS… is just sooo boring. Lets think out of the box, shall we?
1. Rogues (yes, this is how you spell it…)
Ok, not so good PvE, virtually no side skills at all. But how about poisons, how about crippling skills? There is no better class at maximizing the DPS against an opponent. He is needed, pure and simple. I won’t go anywhere without at least 1 or 2 good rogues, because they make things so damn easy for me. This is what they do. Between 2-3 poisons and cripplings they have to watch their DPS and boom, a furry specc out-DPSd them already. So? Just PvP the dude after and laugh as he is stun locked the whole time while you take down a tank with a butter knife and your awsome skils. The advantage in PvP is enourmous, no one can deny it. They just have tools for PKing in their repertoire.
2. Druids
Yes, ladies and gentlemen, the creme de la creme. Sure, we can tank just like (or better) than a Prot Warr. Sure we can pop heals like there is no tommorow, And we can DPS like a mother f#$$#&. But all of this costs time and money we sometimes don’t have. Pre-WotLK we had to work our asees of just to come near a warr or rogue in DPS terms, we were there just because its safer to have a healer that can have 15k armor, just in case something goes bad. But we can only do one thing at a time. Pop a heal while DPSing and it all goes to heck. Personally I play druids because their simple, not in skills mind you but they just have a couple of abilities compared to a rogue or warrior. While these guys have 3 darn trees they can pick abilities from and are renowned for hybrid speccing, I can only rely on one good one. Hybridity just won’t do for hybrids. So while a warr can charge and intercept me, I can only pop dire bear and hope it won’t hurt that much. As for rogues, knowing just how DPS goes, I sometimes decide to start in dire bear, they just have so many abilities to stun me before I do, it seems pointless to try and beat them at their own game.
3. Pallys
These guys were soooo bad pre-WotLK, Blizzard probably just over-did it when it came to fixing this. Ret was a joke, you just had armor but no DPS. Tank as a pally? People would just laugh at you while they casually joked with their building-sized tauren. It proved viable as a healer, but again the choices they had (and still have) are somewhat limited. Especially since Blizz decided to double the talents and keep a measely 71 talent points, going down 2 trees at once is even harder for mixed classes. So cut them a brake and just let them enjoy it while it lasts. You thought they were useless, well now the wheels turned.
As a final point, forget this entire debate. I seriously doubt Blizz planned for hybrids to rule the DPS meters. What would be the point of the pure DPSers? Do you seriously think that they would just forget about such issues? P.S.: be glad to be a warrior or rogue, my druid has to go round town in a green f$#^@ dress designed by 3-year olds to show his newly acquired 25-man T7…
By arkanoxx on Thursday, March 26th, 2009 at 11:32 am
i think rouges do good and are very good at pve and pvp
i seen a few people whoare alive then i look again and they are dead and then im dead
By Xplaced on Friday, March 27th, 2009 at 5:53 am
I don’t know who wouldn’t agree with this, besides a hybrid that’s just selfishly wanting the game built around their class.
It’s obvious - dps classes are built for dps only. They should do more dps. There’s not really an argument here.
Just because someone might make the mistake of rolling the wrong class and realizing they like something else more later (like a dps class) doesn’t mean that they should complain that they can’t dps. Just a scenario I’m throwing out there to get the point across.
It’s pretty simple. There are multiple choices in this game for dps, healing, or hybrids. Know that healers will heal best, dps will dps best, and hybrids will (and should) be able to do both but not as well as the “pure” classes.
By Aadjed on Friday, March 27th, 2009 at 6:59 am
@ xplaced: as dovehill stated: where are the pure healer and pure tank classes?
By Healadin on Friday, March 27th, 2009 at 8:36 am
I rolled a hybrid class as a first toon so I could see what I wanted to do. Its just my luck that I took to healing and not DPS. If I HAD decided on DPS, I would always be subpar.
Oh wait a minute!!! There are alts!!!!
Jeez.
By Solarphoenix on Friday, March 27th, 2009 at 8:54 am
I honestly never gave it much thought…may be because i was a rogue so my DPS beat out PLENTY of other classes with ease….but after reading the post i really am wondering about the balance of the game…I mean for a rogue DPS is literally all we have EVERY fight is a race to beat your stuns most fights you can finish before cheap shot is even up but others you need to go through your whole stun rotation…now alot of people hate the fact that rogues can stun the way they do BUT that is something to counteract their weak armor and health…no you take something like an enhancement shaman…first off they wear mail for reasons beyond my understanding so naturlly they are tougher then rogues…they can also heal themselves effectively even if they have 0 points in resto…So not only is said shaman tougher than a rogue and able to heal BUT with windfury procs that shaman is also matching the rogues DPS or coming dangerously close…By all rights why even bring a rogue? you may as well just bring the shaman who can heal itself and saving the healer mana during AoE fights…or in soloing the shaman is taking down elites that a rogue would require someone to help with…in all honesty it doesn’t seem very fair
By Darkneezie on Friday, March 27th, 2009 at 11:35 am
I’ve played a rogue now for a year and a half did almost all of the bc content and during this time the only thing that could come close to my dps was a mage or hunter and maybe a lock. I have to admit, once Wotlk came out and i started doing some of the normal dngeons on my way to 80 I noticed an emmediate change to my dps. I was none too pleased about this outcome, let me tell you. So after I came to the realization (once I started doing 10 man naxx) that rogues are next to useless in Wotlk i tried rolling a different class, a shaman. I just couldnt stomach it. So now im stuck on a rogue that can do about 3.2k dps fully raid buffed and pretty well geared when in BC i was easily topping out the charts against as i said before dam near any other class. Now why WHY would blizzard change, specifically, rogue dps so much compared to hunters and mages and locks? All i want is a reasonable explanation. I mean okay we pwn face in pvp but any good healing drood or chain fearing lock can have an advantage over a rogue, so that whole reasoning as to why we would get, well, not nescessarily nerfed as much as overlooked is out. I dont know it just frustrates me to no end and to quote a blizzard guide book “HIghest Single Target Damage” what happend to that?? This is probably just some enigmatic blizzard thing that we will never get a good explanation to but hopefully one day there will be one………
By Hydro on Friday, March 27th, 2009 at 12:04 pm
@ Cypherblock
Some Classes at the moment have had their specs nerfed like rogues currently have one of their main DPS specs nerfed which is supposed to be sorted out in the next patch. Many rogues i know have stopped raiding at the moment and moved on to roll other Classes for this particular reason..
By Jeff on Friday, March 27th, 2009 at 2:20 pm
All this talk of hybrid Classes should, in my opinion, include Warriors. I really get hacked off that Warriors are seen (largely) as one thing… TANKS.
I, for one have always played my (now L80) Warrior as DPS - mainly because there’s not a great deal to inform new players of the flexibility that each Class has, esp. those that most have quoted as (and will generally agree are) hybrid classes, so I wasn’t aware that a Warrior could be called on to fulfil any other role than a ’cause damage’ role.
Now that I’ve been playing for over a year (to be honest, it didn’t take ALL this time), I’ve got to realise that a Warrior wasn’t the best Class to start playing on; because of the ingrained stereotype that Warriors are saddled with. Or, is it that some players choose to deny Warriors any degree of flexibility of roles…?
I’ll also pick up on the reliance of quantification add-ons and hold the stance that they DO NOT show the general level of a characters’ capabilities, unless you have teamed with a particular player on several occasions or have run the same scenario with more that one equivalently ‘kitted/equipped’ player, on more than one occasion. If you take one set of figures to conclude that someone is not suited to a particular role, then at least have the courtesy to ‘Inspect’ their kit & talent trees and discuss your issues with them AFTER the ‘event’… especially if you feel they have underachieved - and certainly in private… man-management has a valid place in group encounters and those who ’spout numbers’ all the time (particulary when citing underachievement) have a tendency to do so groundlessly and usually only have themselves to blame if they feel they have ‘carried’ someone.
On the whole, if you ask someone to fulfil a role, do so because you TRUST them to do so - or don’t ask them to DO the job in the first place.
Those that choose to take on a specialist Class as opposed to a ‘hybrid’ Class should be rewarded for doing so, for example:
1) Choosing to play a Rogue, you are there to ‘hurt’ people… give them a DPS premium, and
2) Choosing to play a Prot. Warrior, you are there to lessen damage to other players - no need for a DPS premium,
HOWEVER…
Choosing to play an Arms or Fury Warrior, you are there to ‘hurt’ people, also.. so a DPS premium is to be expected - maybe not ‘quite’ as much as a Rogue (as they don’t have as much of a choice), but it’s still warranted.
… and so it should scale, down to Cloth Healers, who aren’t expected to ‘hurt’ people anything LIKE as much as a Rogues, so have no need for any DPS premiuim whatsoever.
This will be greeted with a tirade of “TL;DR”, but it’s still a valid post.
By Sardit on Friday, March 27th, 2009 at 5:24 pm
Speaking as the only cloth healing class in the game…
Why don’t we get a healing premium? every other healer class ( all hybrids just as priests are ) have higher healing on at least one area of healing. Paladin have way stronger single target heals ( and cheaper mana costs ) Shamans simply rule in aoe healing and i’ve yet to see a renew beat the druids hots.
Sure we have shadow, but you can’t say thats a good dps spec. Its up there with the other hybrids. Yet priests lack two major things other healers have.
No escape mechanisms for pvp that actually work.
No armour at all. Sure if you create a pure pvp spec in the disc tree you can still do pretty well in arena, but as a holy raid healer, i don’t even stand a chance in world pvp.
Add to that the abysmal low damage while soloing mobs. Plus the fact that you don’t have armour means simply that any time you pull more then 1 elite on your own, you’re toast. No chance to outheal their damage while slowly killing them off with dots. Or to burn them to the ground. It may take 5 minutes, but you still die in the end. Compare that to a deathknight that takes 50 secs to kill both of them and then uses a bandage to regain his health. It simply feels unfair at times.
My take, at least consider priests not just a hybrid but a healer. And give us some bonuses for trading in armour for cloth. I mean locks and mages have insane sustained damage, shadow priests don’t come close to it. Give a similar burst that the locks and mages have in dps to the healing that priests do. Its sad to see other classes outheal us by a mile if their gear is of equal level as ours.
By Usdom on Saturday, March 28th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
It should be more than 5%. It should be more like 15%. You are giving up SO MUCH to be a pure class you should be rewarded with doing what you do much, much better.
By Usdom on Saturday, March 28th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
Prot warriors and holy priests for example should be a LOT better at their respective jobs than hybrids.
By Balkri on Saturday, March 28th, 2009 at 10:50 pm
Why would you punish someone for picking a certain class?
Why should someone be able to pay half attention as a pure and pull more dps as a hybrid who had to be completely focused to even compete?
Rogues can pull as much dps as ret paladins.
Magi can pull as much dps as balance druids.
Learn to adapt, people. Blizzard made all specs viable for all classes.
Btw, have you ever seen a ret or prot paladin toss a heal? Think they can solo an instance boss with 6k mana?
QQ more.
By HawkWing on Monday, March 30th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
As an elemental shaman i feel that i’m more of a support player supporting my raid with totems and hero and a helping heal here and there than just another dps but what sadens me is that blizz did not go all the way, i can’t out do any dpsers (only rouges and thats cause blizz over nerfed them) neither is my support truly essential to the raid.
I think a way to over come this is to make sure all dps do the same amount of dmg BUT in a raid the pure dps needs to do more dps than a hybrid that can be done with, let me give u an example.
Lets say a elem shaman do the same amount of dmg as a mage but when they join in a raid/party the mage do the most dps by a lets say 5-10% cause of the buffs/totems the shaman brings with him.
If they do this with all the hybird dps classes all classes is needed and the pure dps’ers shine
Comment on this and let me know what u think
By Ultraking on Tuesday, March 31st, 2009 at 10:58 am
I agree 100% that a pure class should be able to outperform a hybrid class in it’s intended roll. When I rolled a mage, for instance, I understood that I would never be able to heal myself without bandages or pots, never be able to res a fallen comrade and never be able to tank like a warrior. I do think it’s cool that Blizzard sometimes lets us step outside of our intended function and do something special, for example mage tanking in Gruul’s lair, but overall, I picked a mage because I wanted to rain down furious blows of magical death and destruction on my enemies and that’s the way it should be. Not to mention that I love to make strudel, nommy nommy strudel, nom nom nom…
By Blight on Tuesday, March 31st, 2009 at 11:33 am
Okay, we got Healers, DPS, and Tanks, there’s also great functionality offered to Pet classes that allow them to stand above Pure DPS classes.
So, while you Warlocks and Hunters may think your a Pure DPS class, you have a permanent pet which allows you to pull off stuff that Mages and Rogues cannot. Hunters and Warlocks can have their Pets tank (as long as the appropriate pet is used) and heal their pet while still doing decent DPS. You won’t be tanking in Raids, but neither will a Shaman. You won’t be healing in Raids, but neither will a DK. But you have a Spec option that allows you just enough of all three roles to do some non-raid PvE awesomeness.
As a Paladin, Shaman, Druid and Priest, in order to heal, you generally are sacrificing your ability to DPS. For instance, as a Druid or Priest you must leave your DPS form (Cat, Moonkin, Shadowform) to heal. As a Paladin and Shaman your heals will take time to cast. Except for some cooldown or proc based abilities. Even then, your still using a 1.5 second GCD that could add to your DPS.
Then what about the hybrids, like Shaman, Priest and Warrior who can only really effectively do 2 roles, vs the Hybrids who can perform all 3 depending on spec. Should they have the same 5% deficit? Maybe 5% for Paladin and Druids but only a 2.5% deficit for Shaman, Hunter, Warlock, Priest, and Warrior should be considered because of the limits they have. Death Knights though do have the option to Tank/DPS and also have a Pet option as well so perhaps they should be closer to the 5% as well.
Either way, it doesn’t really matter much, because this is purely about Raid DPS and certain classes are going to do significantly better DPS in certain fights (Paladin’s against Patchwerk for instance) then other classes because of resistances, immunities, vulnerabilities, armor and other mitigation. So if a class like Rogue or Mage feel they should be always doing the best DPS against every mob, well, that just isn’t going to happen.
One of the other things that Hybrid classes have as a limitation is that in Raids, they are often wanted more for their Tank or Healing roles. How many Raiding Druids are Resto or a Feral tank, how many of those wanted to really just play as a DPS role? As a DPS only class, you aren’t going to be requested to respec and fill an alternate role. You are secured in your role. You won’t have to heal through tears of regret.
By Brutis on Tuesday, April 7th, 2009 at 10:50 am
i truely believe there wont be a solution to the QQing about hybrid classes out dpsing pure. If they ramp up the dmg of the pure classes the PVPers will cry like bitches. If they nerf the hybird classes it will force them into a role they are better at besides dpsing because more pure classes will fill raids for the best dps.
I personally think they should cut out world pvp all together and have servers strictly for pvp content - meaning servers only for arena and bg’s that you can copy your existing character to and participate in pvp that way (similar to copying your character to a PTR0 with exception of only taking your gold at time of copy that could be used to purchase starter pvp sets). The PVE and PVP servers then could have two different sets of rules mechanically and if a fury warrior was banging out 10k dps you could tune a rogue to knock out 12k in PVE but to keep pvp balanced you can tone down the dmg on the pvp side of things. They could go all different directions with it too- adding talents to trees for pvp and removing some unneeded ones for pve. it would streamline the game and give developers much more room to work with when creating new content PVE wise, as well as for pvp. Swapping to the pvp or pve servers could be simple as logging out of your toon on the PVE server and logging into the PVP server or vice versa, which a lot of people do anyway (would be the same thing as logging into an alt, except as stated before it’s a copied version of your character). I think this would be a real plausible solution to have a perfect balance to the game between pvp and pve content. Sadly bliz probably wouldn’t toss out the money to buy the servers/invest into the hours of programming it would take. They’d rather just keep on trucking with trying to make a balance to something that will never be perfect with the current system..
By Exark on Tuesday, April 7th, 2009 at 1:58 pm
I play a Dreani Shaman Enh spec alot of 25 man gear, including my weapons.
I think this issue should only realy effect PVP combat where multi tasking is more useful.
I pve mainly and i Rarly use healing spells and only ever on my self if i do, and other pure dps classes have some self heal to use, my shaman is usualy in top 4 dps with a Hunter, Dk (unholy, forst), Warrior (fury) and i think in pve even if a Hybrid tops dps who cares they are on your side helping u kill the boss.
In pvp it’s different being able to mutli task is a huge help but with most hybrid class means a comprimise, as a shaman to heal i have to cut my dps by using mealstorm to heal, or melee time to cast.
I think the key thing to rember is blizzard are still playing with the class balance, effects and talents are always changing classes and specs go up and down in dps all the time, for example all hunter spec Suv from BM. Also u have to rember certain classes benifit from stats more, like in BC warlocks did isane dps in t5+ and Ret pallies with WF did even more. In Wotlk Ret pallies do huge dps in blue gear but even when getting into full epic thier dps dosn’t rise much higher.
By Fruins on Sunday, April 12th, 2009 at 6:57 am
personally i think pvp is terible as a mage. i may as well be getting head from my gf
By Alternate on Sunday, April 19th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
BUT, even if they do change it to where PURE DPS classes do an average of 5% more DPS, theres ALWAYS going to be a hybrid class who does more DPS than you, not matter how well your geared.
Simply because of PLAY-STYLE! Even though rogues have been hit pretty hard, my brother has always been #2 in 25-mans. Why? Because his play-style is different than most rogues and it fits the way he plays. EVERY class has an infinite amount of play-styles, but theres usually only ONE that fits a certain person.
On my 56 shaman, I can out-DPS most other classes just because of the way my key-bindings are set and my spell rotation. My friend, whose also a shaman, does similar DPS (we battle for #1 when instances and its 50/50 as to who wins), but with an ENTIRELY different key-binding system and spell rotation.
So even though they change the hybrid classes to do less damage (as an average), you will STILL run into hybrid classes that have equal or less gear and beat you in DPS just because they have a play-style that matches them. Of course, this isn’t an insult to you if this happens, just means you maybe should rework your play-style by spending maybe an hour on target dummies in SW or IF. I garauntee that if you find the best playstyle for yourself, your DPS will jump! How your current play-style is right now determines how significant the change will be.
NOTE: If you do decide to try to change your play-style, please remember that even a .5% increase in DPS is worth the change!
By Sethifer on Wednesday, April 22nd, 2009 at 6:40 am
As an Afflic lock, GM, Raid Leader, i can easilly say that the “Pure” dps classes are good where they are. Never have i seen a hybrid class out DPS a Warlock, Mage (properly gear) (and with the guy/ girl behind the mouse knowing what he is doing). I top the charts every raid night in and night out. Paying attention to my raid, positioning, dots, along with many other things. Maybe its just me but i think ANY class can be on top if the guy behind the screen knows what he is doing.
By joe the Plumper on Monday, May 18th, 2009 at 2:50 am
I think you guys are missing the point. There are many cases where you need ranged DPS vs melee DPS. Sometimes a hunter is necessary for crowd control and kiting, can’t do some fights in Naxx without a priest and Mind Control. Sometimes I see a rogue top DPS, sometimes a mage, sometimes a paladin. All classes can have high DPS, its just some classes are dedicated for that role.
By soulreava on Tuesday, May 19th, 2009 at 5:58 pm
Ok here’s a slightly different take…
Why not make all ‘pure DPS’ classes hybrids? It might take a bit of a stretch in same cases but i could easily see a demonolgy warlock tanking in metamorphosis form or for that matter an affliction lock healing via siphon life/drain life (ie directing life to tank)
Hunters could probably tank via some sort of beast talent, either turning into a beast similar to bear form, or using there pet somehow.
Mages and rogues are tough tho i admit. The best i could come up with is a mage tank that uses layers of protective spells to avoid damage. A rogue couldnt really tank but perhaps a form of healing that revolves around less magical means ie surgery talents etc (they do spend a lot of time slicing people up lets face it)
That way all dps specced classes could do roughly the same damage but pure DPS classes would have a little variety as well.
What do you think?
By Reocken on Sunday, June 28th, 2009 at 3:04 pm
I dont really think there is a pure class or hybrid almost all classes are functional in dps depending on what your aiming for.
Paladins for example they almost Couldnt dps without DS or CS but with Exoricm its not a problem you just have to know how to play. I for a change play hybrid paladin and im doin overdamage when i get Reckoning and reckoning can trigger by seal of blood now so thats good
But then lets take a hybrid class and turn it over.
Warlocks, Dks, hunters BAH! they have a split up on Damaging talents in the builds and can therefor do a high standard dps and also as good talents in all builds so if you want Nightfall take it its on 15+ AFf if you want backlash fine its at 20+ Destro extra crit extra hit extra damage and other stuff..
Every class has cons and pros when it comes to Hybrids so find out what
Lets go back to my pally cuz of SoB dmg i gain reckoning atleast once per 10 hits and as a pally i have 3 damaging attacks using my build. CS, Exo, Judge + Extra attacks and i can trigger thoose often and when i get reckoning which is an extra hit i just use. auto Atk, Auto atk cs and it will trigger double blows + SoB so that works for me and ive had 7k dps and i havent even reached 80 …
By soulreava_nagrand on Saturday, July 18th, 2009 at 9:04 pm
As one of the players that enjoys a pure DPS class (warlock in my case) i actually don’t think that pure DPS classes should be designed to do more damage.
Firstly - 5% is really a small margin and one that would almost impossible to balance IMO. Different situations/fights/gear/lag/skill will have far more of an impact than that. So the choice is either make the difference greater or just forget it in the first place and make them all the same.
Second - Assuming the design is set to be the same DPS output for all classes then allow the non hybrid classes to bring something unique to the group/raid.
Here i think warlocks have it good in the sense we can summon (into instances now) in case sum1 d/c’s etc and we have healthstones/soulstones as well as pets for buffs and CC. I don’t see mages/hunters/rogues bringing half as much usefullness to a raid or group as locks and i believe they should… This would allow the pure dps to believe they have *something extra* to make up for the fact that we cannot fill multiple roles with the click of a button or enjoy another playstyle without lvling to 80 again
soulreava
By F.P. on Saturday, July 25th, 2009 at 12:36 am
Pure DPS (Just DPS)
- Rogue, Mage , Warlock , Hunter.
Hybrid (DPS + Heal or Tank)
- Warrior, DK, Priest, Shaman.
Super Hybrid (DPS + Heal + Tank)
- Paladin, Druid.
With same lvl gear pure DPS classes should be always on top of dps metter. I think it should go like this
-DPS
1.Rogue, Mage 2.Hunter, Warlock (cause they have some useful buffs and abilities for the raid and ofc pets n_n) 3.Hybrid classes 5. Super Hybrid classes
-Heal
1.Priest,Shaman 2.Paladin, Druid
-Tank
1.Warrior, DK 2.Druid, Paladin
You will say that it would be a huge nerf for the “super hybrid” classes . NO . They have best buffs of all classes they have ress they can respec and fill a role of any class . More different classes in the raid , more flexible is the raid group .
That’s just only my opinion
By F.P. on Saturday, July 25th, 2009 at 12:39 am
Oh crap forgot the 4
Sorry for the double post 