Posted by Amatera on Friday, June 5th, 2009 - 47 Comments
Tags: ethics, hunger for blood, overpowered, PvE, PvP, Raid, Rogue, rotations, skills, talents
Don't let those bars fool you! I only use like three or four of those buttons!
The Rogue is, by magnitudes, my favorite class. I’ve played one as my main (Amatera) for over 4 years now and enjoyed every second of it. Out of all my alts, not one has yet convinced me to give up on the master of melee combat. Or at least what should be, considering the lack of other roles for a Rogue to fill.
No doubt that the class has seen its ups and downs. I was pretty excited by the new abilities and talents introduced with Wrath, but, like many others of my ilk, came away disappointed with a pretty significant (and unexpected) drop in playability caused by the new mechanics. Raid DPS went down the tubes and, on my server, level-capped Rogues were a scarce lot.
Heck, I was (and still am) the only non-alt Rogue in my guild. And I’m surprised that I stuck through it, considering that towards the tail end of Burning Crusade I was regularly in the top 3 for damage and was now struggling to break 10.
Things have taken a turn for the better since 3.1. I’ve reclaimed my position in the charts thanks to the modification of Hunger for Blood and a slight respec back into Improved Poisons. But it did something else that makes me wonder whether or not playing a Rogue is too easy — it made my core rotation reductively simple again.
Now, it takes skill and a keen reaction time to play any class well, but that doesn’t change the fact that I’m tailing a boss spamming Mutilate and Envenom whilst our healers have their hands full playing whack-a-mole with raid frames. There is a certain sublimity, a zen-like state if you will, about punching only two or three keys and outputting the insane amount of damage that a Rogue can, but I think people get excited about simplicity until they start to feel the guilt of not putting in the same amount of effort as others. Or, at least I do. Maybe not all those chumps riding coattails for gear.
Before 3.1, my rotation was a lot more complicated than it is now (or was when I was playing Combat in BC), but my damage clearly suffered. Having to maintain three stacks of Hunger for Blood and Slice and Dice was a pain, between expensive Mutilates and the occasional Rupture where I could fit it. The thing about Energy is that, even though you may never run out, your cap is always fixed. So when your pool of the good stuff is being sucked dry by a few expensive skills, it destroys your DPS. With a duration of only 30 seconds, Hunger for Blood was the main culprit: easy to let drop, and far too expensive to get running again. Considering I needed the skill’s buff to even compete on the damage meters, leaving it out was not an option.
Thus, it seems, that the smaller a Rogue’s rotation ultimately is, the more efficiently they can utilize their Energy, and the changes made to the class reflect that. Hunger for Blood now lasts a full minute and need only be triggered by a Bleed effect. In a raid situation, those are going to be a dime a dozen, so unless you’re off tussling with some off-tanked mob, you rarely have to worry about it (and it frees you from having to queue up Rupture, as well). Slice and Dice? Well, that’s refreshed by Envenom, which an Assassination-specced Rogue should be dishing out relentlessly anyway. Like a Showtime Rotisserie, all you need to do is “set it and forget it!”
Sure, I’ve found a few ways to improve my utility, even if only by a tad. I’ll throw an Expose Armor up on a mob if there are no Sunders to be had, I’ll use Feint to ignore some of the crazy Area of Effect damage most of the new Ulduar bosses dish out. Heck, Cloak of Shadows is as useful as ever, especially for those pesky light and gravity bombs XT-002 is fond of afflicting players with.
These skills aren’t ever in my regular rotation, but I’d be more than willing to take a slight hit to my DPS if it meant giving the class more raid-enhancing utility skills. Then again, that might go against the selfish, dirty-dealing, throat-slitting, gold-stealing spirit of a Rogue!
Considering these dynamics, must we be crucified for sins we did not commit? My “Damage-Dealer’s Burden” aside, is there some way to stop the general populace from slinging bawdy insults our way and sermonizing about how over-powered our class is?
I don’t know. Blizzard has stated that they, too, are unhappy with the ease with which a Rogue can obliterate their opponents (especially in PvP). The changes made to Hunger for Blood, after all, were a bit of a hot fix. It’s a fundamentally broken skill, once detrimental to the Rogue itself and now detrimental to everyone else (at least in their eyes). Makes you wonder why it was even incorporated as a new talent in the first place if it was going to cause so much trouble.
For now, we wait impatiently for an answer. We have been told that it is not the right time for a total rehaul of the class and Blue posts concerning Rogues have dwindled since the raid damage output issue was finally “addressed.”
But there must be other Rogues out there reading this. Let me know what’s on your mind! Does “easier-to-play” equal “overpowered?” Do you feel some deep sense of personal guilt when your healers and tanks are yelling at each other as your raid falls apart in front of you, wondering if there was anything you could’ve done to help? Or do you go stealth and wait in a corner until the smoke has cleared?
Rogue or not, what are your feelings on the ethics of rotation complexity? Do you feel as if the game is at its best when it gives you a lot of skills to manage at once, or is a simple hotbar better and more fun? Does it make certain classes more “fair” to play than others?
Related Posts: Playing with a Purpose, WoW Anonymity: Who Are You Playing With?, Rogue, Hitting The Mute Button, iTZKooPA’s Rogue (And Common) Macros For 3.2.2,
By onthebuses on Friday, June 5th, 2009 at 5:24 pm
Amatera you said
“I don’t know. Blizzard has stated that they, too, are unhappy with the ease with which a Rogue can obliterate their opponents (especially in PvP). ”
Hell yeah they do! They are very challenging in PVP, and although it is your favorite class to play, I know you want all comments here to be honest etc. Well rogues need to be nerfed somewhat, to give others a chance in PVP. There is no chance you can beat 3 rogues on you at once. Which is a dirty tactic..but then again rogues are dirty anyways..yuk
Just kidding.
But yep Rogues are a plenty on my server. Sadly
Nerf Rogues
By macbethy on Friday, June 5th, 2009 at 5:31 pm
i still hate rogues when i met them in pvp.
By Laeltis on Friday, June 5th, 2009 at 5:40 pm
I do think some DPS classes have lost their utility in raids. It used to be Hunters, Mages, and Rogues for CC, but now everything is around AoE and like every class has CC.
My only issue with saying Rogues are OP is that the CD on their stuns are pretty much off of each other, and you can over lap like 3 of them on one target. It’s fair for them in PvP, but I think it’s just too OP and only 1 stun should be allowed on a target.
Just my input… take it how you want.
By Xian on Friday, June 5th, 2009 at 6:18 pm
@ Laeltis
If you take away a rogue’s ability to stun-lock in pve/pvp, you take away much of their survivability. While this will make players of other classes giddy pvp-wise (myself included :D), the rogues will be crying and QQ-ing that they’re getting killed so fast.
By todd on Friday, June 5th, 2009 at 10:16 pm
too bad ret pally’s have made rogues obsolete in PVE.
and i’m saying this as an old rogue who jumped sip to ret pally once i realized a. they are about ten’s time more fun to play and b. it’s just the sad truth.
By Amatera on Friday, June 5th, 2009 at 10:41 pm
Is a Ret Pally really more fun to play though? I hear they’re potentially more simple than a Rogue.
I’ve always found my nemesis in Mages, though. They have sufficient ways to keep me locked down and, after that, what can I say? Distance kills.
By tarann on Friday, June 5th, 2009 at 11:30 pm
can cloak of shadows really dispell light/gravity bombs?
By Krashnor on Saturday, June 6th, 2009 at 1:01 am
Almost no Rogues in my realm. We have have lvl capped raiding rogue… all other rogues are lvl 19/29/49 twinks…
BUt yeah shot rotations for rogue should be simple for preserving energy. An Hunter’s rotation however is somewhat more complex. I havn’t hit 80 so I don’t have a rot yet exept my soloiing rotation which would be
Arcane Shot, Serpent Sting, Steady, Steady, Arcane, Steady, Steady, Steady
By priestee on Saturday, June 6th, 2009 at 1:04 am
@ onthebuses
no one should be able to 3 of any class on them, not if your all equally skilled. If you can killed 3 player who have the same skill as you, you are the one playing the OP class lol
By priestee on Saturday, June 6th, 2009 at 1:06 am
damn excuse the spelling mistakes, it late lol
By Amatera on Saturday, June 6th, 2009 at 1:49 am
@tarann
Absolutely, I do it all the time. Assuming that I don’t get them too close together, it allows me to stay on the boss. And unlike, say, Grobbulus’ poison clouds, it doesn’t set them off, either. It just plan old gets rid of em.
By Taith on Saturday, June 6th, 2009 at 3:06 am
i have an 80 rogue aswell as an 80 warrior and i must say that i enjoy the rogue alot more.
By Shagg on Saturday, June 6th, 2009 at 3:53 am
Amatera, rogues aren’t the only “ez mode” dps. Also ret paladins don’t take skill just push the buttons when they´re off CD. This is in PvP also.
By Arassar on Saturday, June 6th, 2009 at 4:29 am
Until I see eleventy-billion rogues running around instead of eleventy-billion death knights, I’ll be just fine with rogues the way they are.
By amidaman on Saturday, June 6th, 2009 at 4:59 am
you’re whining about rogues in pvp? what about “Skillcane” mages? imma spam arcane barrage and oneshot u noobs!
By Varris on Saturday, June 6th, 2009 at 5:28 am
Big thanks Amatera, I finally know how my rogue’s rotation should look like when I reach 80
By Brian on Saturday, June 6th, 2009 at 7:00 am
You should always be keeping rupture up on raid bosses..
So your rotation should look like:
mut -> rupture -> hfb -> SnD -> mut -> envenom, and then you’ll get into your cycle of envenom on 4 combo points and rupture whenever needed.
By L on Saturday, June 6th, 2009 at 7:30 am
I love playign a rogue and have never felt guilty for it, if a fight starts about the raid its the people who didnt do waht they should ahve’s plroblems not mine. on the other hand i do think they should make some fights and pulls in raids where cc is needed and rogues are made to do something other than 4,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,4
and so on. while i was lvling and doing low lvl instnaces I was not only crucial to dmg but also keeping mobs in controll, i miss that, becouse now i just do my rotation and get gear, i never feel guilty for it, but i do get bored sometimes. as for pvp. . .um. . .i dont pvp.
By Jason on Saturday, June 6th, 2009 at 8:28 am
I play a raiding rogue, but I”m not a mut build, I’m combat. My rotation is different.
combo point, combo point, Slice and dice, combo point, combo point, combo point, combo point, combo point, Rupture.
thats about it and my DPS isn’t that bad. I’m hitting 2500-3000k
Rogues are very easy to play when the boss strat are given out. I always find it funny to hear what the tanks and healers and even the range DPS has to do sometimes, and for Melee like us its “don’t stand in bad stuff and hit the boss”
By Kelith on Saturday, June 6th, 2009 at 9:42 am
I’ve got 4 80’s at the moment, paladin with Ulduar healing and tanking gear, Shaman gear with 25 naxx enhance and elemental gear, DK with 25 naxx tanking gear and rogue with 25 naxx gear and I can say that every one of them is easy enough if you know what to do. Rogue’s having an “easier” rotation doesn’t mean they’re overpowered. Have you ever played a ret pally? That’s one easy class. If you branch out and try each class you’ll realize that as long as you know what to do it all seems incredibly easy, not necessarily overpowered.
By Amatera on Saturday, June 6th, 2009 at 11:25 am
@ Arassar
Amen! We have some pretty good DKs in our guild, but it gets to be a pain in the ass when that’s all that we seem to find on our recruitment page!
@ L
Yeah, Ulduar has some pulls that need CC, namely those in the antechamber leading to Kologarn and the mobs that guard General Vezax, but on the whole, I do kind of miss sapping.
@ Brian
I’m still not convinced about the damage value of Rupture over Envenom. I figure if I’ve got the combo points, Envenom’s got the higher damage, and if other people in the raid are adding bleed effects, then I’m set with Hunger for Blood. I mean, I’ll toss up a Rupture if I know I’m going to be off the boss for awhile (Razorscale returning to the sky, for instance).
By John on Saturday, June 6th, 2009 at 11:56 am
@ Jason
lol so you do 3milion dps
/
its a shame that there’s always going to be some overpowered class and it will be next to impossible to actually make the game balanced and someone will always be QQing
By Irishi on Saturday, June 6th, 2009 at 11:57 am
Glad to see a post about Rogues and rotations. Something that’s been bugging me for a long time is the 5pt Rupture issue. I HATE when I have a 5pt Rup on my target and want to refresh it only to get the “A More Powerful Spell is Already Active,” or whatever the error message is. It’s not more powerful, Blizz, it’s equally as powerful, let me refresh!!! I’m spent wasting my time and energy regen waiting for the original Rupture to complete. I’ve actually come up with a better Combat rotation because of it:
2SnD/5Rp/3Env
With AdRush popped, I’ll throw 2SnD/4Env/5Rup/4Env
There are only a few times with missed Potency proc’s that I lose my Rupture, but it seems to be OK.
By Dave on Saturday, June 6th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
i think everyone needs to chill out… rogues kick tits. anyone who says rogues are overpowered obviously aren’t fighting pallys QQ…
By Dave on Saturday, June 6th, 2009 at 12:25 pm
btw a fellow rogue should help me out when it comes to pvp’ing pallies… i wanna fuck em up!
By Irishi on Saturday, June 6th, 2009 at 3:25 pm
Best way to PVP against Pallies: go after the warlock.
By Irishi on Saturday, June 6th, 2009 at 3:26 pm
as in avoid them. Forgot to make my post idiot-proof.
By Ommadon on Saturday, June 6th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
I think what makes a class fun to play is having just the right amount of thought required to play it efficiently. Example: A Death Knight with about 5 buttons and a Hunter with about 50. The Hunter has to think about what to do because there are so many options for him, but the DK knows that you always press 1 after 2 after 3 etc. But Death Knights are still badass.
By cocopuff on Saturday, June 6th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
i play an 80 rogue i allso play an 80 frost mage and an 80 unholy DK oh and a 62 paly i love ranged dps mosst of the fight i dont veven have to move melee dps not so muc for starters when the boss is bkited it makes a bit hard ot hit ya ret paly aree awsome in both pvpand pve but for now we are qqing about rogue will qq about palys later i have no problem with how good rogues are in pvee the better the well better therotation used to annoy the crap out of me i anto do something and this guy tells me with his squaky voice “not enough energy” so i aploud make the roation shorter to make the cost less and damage more what i have a problem with is getting 2 shoted in pvp really unfair i dont even need to beat a rogue i just need a chance and with all teh stuns all the poisons i am usauly dead by the time the stun lock even wears of maybe blizz can amke it so you can only use one stun one the target in pvp because its a an important part of a rogue when pve liek the paladins excorsismthats all i ask keep am kick ass in PVE but keep them leveled with the rest of us in pvp
By cocopuff on Saturday, June 6th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
hunters are wicked especialy sovival classes those 50 buttons are supostu be presed in a correct order and people stop uusing numbers to represent you’re abilitys because we dont know what they stand ofr
By Walker on Saturday, June 6th, 2009 at 5:59 pm
Nerfing Hunger for Blood like Blizzard did was a little lame and even though they said it was for PvP… I dont see how it was. I dont know any rogue that would of ever used it in PvP.
I used it in PvE all the time! I would always keep a full stack up and on boss fights where the boss would Wirld Wind put a bleed on any one in Melee range id cast it to remove that bleed so I didnt have to worry about running out.
Now… its so simple and boring. Ive been forced in to combat due to a very slight DPS increase over mut. I miss daggers.
Btw I never had a problem being number 1 or 2 pre HfB nerf. I still don’t have a problem.
By pixiestixy on Saturday, June 6th, 2009 at 10:37 pm
I can’t wait to hit level 80, respec, and start dishing out the damage, too. For now, I’m combat-specced and dealing with a much different rotation. But I can see the difficulty with energy - I always want more. Love Adrenaline Rush!
But since I can’t always be getting back extra energy, a pretty simple rotation makes things a bit easier to keep track of. But it’s a trade off - as you said Amatera, there’s tons of other abilities, especially defensive, that come in handy. So you can’t forget about those, too :).
By Joenips on Sunday, June 7th, 2009 at 7:06 am
Rotation is very simple. I have an 80 rogue and love it.
All you really have to worry about is getting to 4 or 5 Combo points.
Garrote (to open) -> HfB-> SnD-> Mut(to 4 or 5 CP)-> Envem-> Mut-> Rup-> Mut-> Envem-> Mut -> Rup-> repeat
What I like to do is when SnD reaches 10sec left I will apply rupture and same when i refresh SnD as long as you only mutilate 1-3 during that 10 sec gap, depending on how lucky you get with your combo point generation talents, energy is never a problem
By Roi on Sunday, June 7th, 2009 at 10:32 am
I once got Stun-Locked as a lvl 79 Resto Druid in EotS…
By a Lvl 70 Rogue
By cocopuff on Sunday, June 7th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
you call taht simple?
By Nuffer on Sunday, June 7th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
Well i dont know, but theres a rogue on my server who goes by the name of Lailani, and well she has no problem exceeding the DPS chart of all our hunters and warlocks, if our hunters and sitting there 4k+, Lailani is just over 5k and as much as this comes as a shock to me, it can be done.
By Healzrus on Sunday, June 7th, 2009 at 7:07 pm
Imagine yourself on a lonely street at night. Go figure.
Thats why rogues are the way they are. Able to stun their victims multiple times and get them where it really hurts.
Rarely would you see someone escape unscathed when ambushed by a rogue in medieval times… the victims usually end up bleeding profusely, on the brink of death.
Same analogy here. We would all do injustice to the very meaning of the word assasin/rogue/thief if we ever so much try to balance out the abilities to a point where its considered fair for any one class to have a chance at beating up a rogue upon first contact - i emphasize FIRST CONTACT.
Once rogues lose the initiative of a first contact, they’re pretty much toast.
By randomhero on Sunday, June 7th, 2009 at 9:32 pm
When it comes to rogues a lot of people focus on the side of them that effects them the most, which to non-rogue players is PVP. Most people could care less about their lack of raid DPS and cry about stun locking and other rogue like tactics. The problem with the class as of 3.1 is that you cannot limit their ability of one half of the game(PVP) without limiting the other half(PVE) or enhance either half without the same effect. Seems to me like we need a class overhaul. I dont have any suggestions for other rogues such as myself, im just waiting for blizzard to act on this. Actually i do have a suggestion, do as I did. If you miss pre WOTLK rogues, roll an enhancement shammy
By Ombrenoire on Monday, June 8th, 2009 at 6:10 am
I have a Rogue alt (that I have to pull out and dust off one of these days) but the rotation issue is something even my Hunters see.
As a BM, my DPS was very rotation dependant, usually utilizing 5 to 6 abilities in the rotation to maximize damage.
As a SV Hunter, that rotation has dropped to only 2 skills in the rotation with the occasional sting and Black Arrow thrown in for good measure. My mana never drops below 60% and I can put out 2.5K minimum of damage. Nothing like seeing your kill shot crit for 10K in a raid ^_^
I see absolutely nothing wrong with using hot buttons to maximize DPS. It is one of those skills you learn as a player, finding the best rotation to make your toon a powerhouse in a raid. That Rogue are being ragged on for their uberness, look who usually does the complaining: some little twerp who barely makes it on the meter and they are supposed to be a DPS class.
Besides, the DPS meter does not a good toon or DPS machine make. If all you’re concerned about if topping that meter, you are not using your toon to its best abilities.
Rogues cause damage from behind, increasing the kill-ability of a boss by all the other classes while avoiding damage to themselves. They have armor peircing abilities that make it easier for everyone else to land a critical shot. They have poisons that make it easier for other toons to act.
As a Hunter, I highly admire the Rogue’s abilities and love teaming up with one when running instances.
Hunter / Rogue FTW!!
By Floella on Monday, June 8th, 2009 at 7:15 am
Personally I have never played a rogue because I’ve always had an aversion to most melee classes and I always pick to play a healer over anything else (since my main is a druid). Being a healer, I always have to be on my toes in raids, and I enjoy it a lot despite the occasional complaining of having to “pay attention” and all of that. I consider myself a pretty okay healer in general.
On the other hand, strangely enough, I can’t dps to save my life. It’s not a matter of gear, I just don’t do well at rotations and timing myself. I prefer the insanity of healing where I have to pick and choose what to do every second. I find people that do good dps amazing even if it means you’re really only hitting a few keys at a time because it’s something that is beyond my capabilities.
I think the variety is the point of it all, and different people suit different stuff. My favourite job will probably always be healer (I’m working on a priest currently because now I want to try healing as a priest strangely enough) and I will probably stay away from melee as long as I possibly can whereas other people will rock dps with a few buttons and be content to do so. It doesn’t make it unfair or fair, it just makes sure that people can find what suits their needs best.
By Sardit on Monday, June 8th, 2009 at 8:39 am
rogue on priest & priest has no chance, constant stunlock till i’m dead, If they remove that maybe rogue survivability gets worse, but in all honesty priest survivability against a well played rogue = 0. Only if i manage to get out of that stunlock do i even stand a chance, and then only against idiot rogues that keep chasing me not paying attention on my dots / aoe. All they need to do is stop chasing and run the opposite direction.
( world pvp 1 vs 1 situations, arena its different, as your team mate might do something about that rogue )
By Richard on Monday, June 8th, 2009 at 9:12 am
Started with a Warrior tank during molten core…. boring. Had a warlock, also during Molten core up to Karazhan, also nothing too special.
Have a rogue since BWL. class is ownage. Mining in caves with stealth = win. Cant complain in PvE either (I dont PvP, thats just… meh boring). Rotation as mutilate spec is not too hard, still requires you to pay attention. ToT is a nice extra, FoK AoE is well…. i find that a stupid thing to add to a rogue. Then again, I wouldnt want to see myself running in Naxx where all is AoE’d and having to single target stuff while everything is burned down before i can even switch targets.
WIll happilly stick to my rogue. And t8 rogue shoulders rule all other shoulders so
By Sam on Monday, June 8th, 2009 at 10:58 am
As for PvP…
Rouges getting off first hit with a stun, fair.
Rouges stun locking a prot warrior with stun reduction talents and meta gem, not fair. Especially considering the amount of stam and armor warriors carry.
In PvE…
Also our guild’s assassination rouge is putting up some very impressive numbers in raids. He tops the dps charts beating out equally geared mages and dks by a good amount. Not that I have a problem with that since rouges haven’t seen much love since wrath came out.
By Kagitaar on Monday, June 8th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
In PvE, I have no problem with rogues or anyone having a simple rotation that produces high dps. Just because you only use a few buttons, does not mean its easy to pull off perfectly. When you need two bars worth of buttons to pull off your rotation, is it fun? As for being competitive, its more about player skill. I regularly tie or beat any rogue I come across with my enhancement shaman, its all about their skill relative to mine.
As for PvP, being an enhancement shaman; I’ve hated rogues since the beginning. Damn stun-locks.
By Zearha on Monday, June 8th, 2009 at 11:41 pm
I love stealthing along the Battle Fields looking for the lonely player setting away from the others or taking out the people healing in the back. That is a rogues job. Being the d*ck so the team can win the fight. Being a pvper one of the few that is (after reading the post above). A rogues rot is simple because we try to find the fastest way from u being alive to u being well died. O yeah i havent seen anyone talking about what rogues do if we cant stun. We Ambush. Yeah if u want us to have one stun thats fine with me. Give me my keadny Shot with 5 points and Shadow Dance and i will make you wish that stuns would come back.
By Cypherblok on Tuesday, June 9th, 2009 at 7:17 am
I love reading people QQ over how Rogues are SO OP. C’mon now! Just because we have a simple rotation doesn’t mean squat. We still don’t top the dmg meters and we are PURE dps class. We are still gett face rolled by Pallies and DKs and are one of the least played classes in the game right now (IMO). The entire game is unbalanced and it’s always going to be that way. While the debates are always interesting to read and it’s great to see others opinions, let’s talk about the real problem. Let’s talk about how Blizzard steals everyone’s soul with this game we call WoW!!! Lmao!
By power leveling guide on Wednesday, June 10th, 2009 at 6:55 am
I enjoy the rogue a lot more than my warrior.