Posted by Heartbourne on Saturday, November 7th, 2009 - 34 Comments
There was a post over on Elitist Jerks that outlined a loot distribution system called GDKP, or “gold DKP“. I really like the concept and plan to try it out soon. It has been popular in Korea for some time year, and it is getting some traction on US and EU realms.
GDKP is a relatively simple system. Here is how it works:
- Whenever a desirable item drops, bidding starts. There is a minimum bid for items, usually around 50g. If the item is disenchantable, its always higher than the market price of the shard in principle.
- Bidding can be done in a variety of ways. The most common way is publicly in raid chat, with no limit on the number of bids any one person can make. Bids have a required increment above the previous bid.
- If no bids are made for 10 seconds, the highest bidder receives the item and pays his money into the “pool”. It is usually held by the raid leader/loot master. If no bids are made, the item is disenchanted and bid off, starting low.
- At the end of the raid, the “pool” is divided among the raiders.
This system has many benefits, as well as a few weaknesses.
The biggest advantage I see to this is a modularity of raid members and of loot “karma”. Loot systems like karma and DKP based ones make it difficult for new members to get loot. With this system, everyone comes in with as much “karma” as they carry in their wallet. Whenever someone gets usable loot, its of direct (monetary) benefit to all other raiders, so other people receiving usable loot is a good thing. If you are raiding with someone who wants the same item as you and you both bid vigorously, one of you receives it and the other gets a large sum of money. In this way, there is less drama about who to bring to raids. Undergeared people will get lots of gear, and geared people will receive compensation for not directly receiving loot.
Another benefit is the removal of any RNG elements. There is absolutely no randomness in who receives gear; its a completely deterministic way to distribute loot. It also removes any “weight” the raid leaders have on who they think should receive loot. Do you think its unfair that you are being forced to heal and cannot roll on DPS gear? There is no main spec/off spec distinction, so if you desire it as much as someone who wants it for main spec, you can still choose to receive that gear. Feel like its unfair someone is receiving all the gear? You receive compensation, and if you want gear next time, go grind out some gold. Additionally, if you “kind of” want some gear that noone else wants, you don’t get penalized for taking it with a major karma/DKP loss, its only a small payment that shows that you value it more than a shard.
The negatives of this system really lie in people being dishonest. There is always the possibility of the raid leader stealing the gold pool. This is why it is highly suggested that the entire system is explained before the raid in game; GMs will intervene and take disciplinary action if a raid leader does not honor loot agreements. Always make sure this conversation takes place in game to refer to later for your own security.
There is also the possibility of raiders bidding more gold than they have. This is usually fixed quickly since they need to pay on the spot, but artificially inflating prices without the risk of actually having to pay is usually a good reason to immediately remove someone from the raid without compensation.
Additionally, all raid members are usually bound til the end in order to receive their cut of the pool. This is a double-edged sword; it keeps people going, but it can be inconvenient when the raid leader holds all the bargaining chips to push the raid further, which is ripe for possible abuse. This system really requires a lot of trust from all participants.
There are all sorts of variations. While this (in theory) could even be useful for PUGs, it can be a great way for guilds to raise money. You can decide to take 10% of the pool for your guild bank, and if the guild needs money, open up runs to other people to get some funds. You can also reward skill by giving less of the pool to raiders who underperform, such as giving the top DPS, healers, and tank (to compensate for repair costs) slightly more gold, and dock percentage points for raiders who “fail”, such as dying while fighting Heigan or standing in some flavor of fire.
Its a very goblinist way of raiding. Gevlon would be proud.
Would you try this system if given the chance?
Related Posts: Roll, WoW Life Lesson #30: You Can Always Make A Change, When is Content on “Farm” and What Does That Mean?, A New Guild and the EPGP Loot System, Dungeon and Raid System Q & A,
By Kufawl on Saturday, November 7th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
Seems like a fair idea, though the poor players will undoubtebly revolt!
By 4KhazModan on Saturday, November 7th, 2009 at 3:10 pm
@ Kufawl
Damn right we would! It kills the mor ecasual player who doesn’t have time to farm for massive amounts of gold. Besides, there are plenty of crafted and bought items that are equivilent to what is in raids. The fact that I never have very much money in my bags is the REASON I raid. So instead, my guild uses a system that is very fair in my opinion: At the start we roll 1-1000. Then the add-on the RL has makes a list with the highest rollers at the top. The higher people have priority over the lower people, however, you are pushed to the bottom of the list if you win an item. Main spec also gets priority over off spec. So, what do you think?
By DonJohnson on Saturday, November 7th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
Sounds like another BS system, so rather than having DKP to bid on items, you need gold - replacing one thing for another. But if the system works for you/your guild then who am I to argue. I would just say that if I neded an item for my main/current spec but was outbid by someone with more gold but wanting it for their off spec - I’d be pissed!
I would just say systems like these systems really come into their own when everyone is hungry for items, but once the encounter has been farmed then it becomes more straight forward. It may just be 1 or 2 people rolling on the item for their current spec while anyone else already has it, so there’s less compition and less need for complex dkp systems.
By Druidguyy on Saturday, November 7th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
some guilds on my server run these, I was in one back when I actually had gold. However almost all of them had really really stupid starting bids. (these are the lowest i could find from an Uld 10 man run).
These are the minimum bids
1H Weapons: 600g
Range Weapons/Relic : 750g
2H Weapons: 1200g
Armor (not including tier, rings, neck and trinkets): 1500g
Shields: 1300g
Tier Armor: 1800g
Trinkets, Rings, Neck: 1000g
Patterns etc: 800g
Sure these ideas are great, but within reason
By Bruknar on Saturday, November 7th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
@Druidguyy Wow…. Just wow…. I’m pleased i’m not in the guild. I’d never get any loot.
By Josh(the Original one) on Saturday, November 7th, 2009 at 4:28 pm
This is a ridiculous system and favors those who have the time to farm gold. Raiding is not about who has the most gold it is kind of like the separation of church and state. Gold is fine but it should never be used to buy items in raids. It is not fair for the person who can only make the raids and have no time before to not have the funds available to them to actually get gear.
By Herbs on Saturday, November 7th, 2009 at 4:52 pm
Sorry but i agree with josh here. This is the most ridiculous system i ever heard. You favor the ones that “have no lives” and are on the game 24/7. Ppl with a job or college can forget winning a very good item because they don’t have enough time to farm for gold. There are enough ppl (like me also) that need to work but are there for any raid or fun run done by the guild. They will have no chance any more on a good item if you use this system.
By Meloran on Saturday, November 7th, 2009 at 6:35 pm
I still prefer Suicide Kings, the system my guild uses.
By Urziel on Saturday, November 7th, 2009 at 6:53 pm
All the comments seem to forgo the fact that you still make cash at the end of the run. So you won’t be able to buy something on the first run. Boo-hoo. But when everyone else is busy bidding like madmen you can just kick back and get a nice chunk of coin at the end. Save it and bid on stuff next raid. If nothing you want drops, you still get your share of the pot at the end. So, yes even the “Poor casuals” can benefit from this system.
By 4KhazModan on Saturday, November 7th, 2009 at 8:42 pm
@ Meloran
Thank you, I had forgotten the name of it. My guild uses it too as you can tell by my earlier post.
By grandobsidian on Saturday, November 7th, 2009 at 9:02 pm
really sounds imbalanced and waste of money. ive lived with the fact loot is fairly distributed by who can use it, though i guess there is the chance that the newer players with less money would more money and eventually get their gear so i can see how it balances out
i dont care if people use this system as long as it doesnt spiral out of control and change the way the game works. it kinda removes the ability to be a laid back player if everyone has to race to get all the gold they can
By Mord on Sunday, November 8th, 2009 at 12:12 am
Suicide Kings= most fair system ever…
By BERNIE on Sunday, November 8th, 2009 at 1:17 am
EPGP is the best system i’ve ever used in any raiding environment
By Phanttas on Sunday, November 8th, 2009 at 2:36 am
@ all the people who think this is ‘unfair’ to people with less gold, it isn’t. If you don’t get loot, you get gold! So assuming you are in a group for Naxx, because you have lots of much better than Naxx gear, but some things that could be replaced (This is because Blizzard has decided to try and stop you QQing by giving you easy access to almost the highest level of loot), so you go in without much gold, if there is nothing you want that drops then at the end of the raid you receive gold as compensation which goes into getting you loot next time.
You’ll get your loot at the end, because you will earn gold from making runs. The other thing to do is run old content like Naxx after becoming over geared just for the gold, unless of course, “you don’t have time for that”.
By Port3M5 on Sunday, November 8th, 2009 at 7:49 am
@Urziel is right, this system pays off regardless of you getting loot or not. If you have the cash you can bid on the item, if you dont you get cash instead. If everything sells for a minimum of 100g on a 10 man you’re getting at least 10g per drop.
Work it out.
By cocopuff on Sunday, November 8th, 2009 at 9:40 am
looks like we are going to have to beat this into your thick skulls first of all we would rather have the gear then gold and we can get gear with the RNG system sure it might hate me but atleast i get something sometimes. the gold we get from raids isnt nearly enough to for the bids and i dont blow every coper i have on one piece of gear now i know some of you are going say “the gear doesnt cost that much” in the end game raids ya it does i won the tarasque blade in 25 man toc and some guy offered me 2 grand adn a trophy now owcurse i declined first piece of real gear in weeks i wouldent sell taht blade for anything but you can see how high and how fast the prices can ascalate now waht would be a fun loot system RNG/GDKP here is how it works first you roll for the piece gear you want then if you lose the roll you can bid on it offer the winner a chunk of gold for the piece gear the winner can decide if the he wants to trade sert of deal or no deal kind of thing now the way you ssto pa person from winning everything is you limit everyone in the raid for 2 pieces of gear now i would like to see how the rich bastards of this game would like that
By Uthers on Sunday, November 8th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
It takes about a half hour to get 100 gold at level 80. I’ve managed to pull in closer to 500 gold in that time every so often. This is without dungeons or raids. Ergo, everyone who wants a chance to bid, can get that chance to bid. Now, you may not get an item you want (perhaps someone who has run the raid more often than you has more money to bid with), but even then you get a significant goold boost at the end of the raid. Save it for the next run, or spend it on something, your choice. it is not an all out loss. And this is IF you choose to use this system. If you do not, you do not have to run the raid. Choosing not to run a raid with those who use this system puts more power into the hands of healers and tanks (at least my server, I think I’ve seen a call for DPS wanted on anything all of twice)
And if you are broke, and running a raid for cash, you get cash. More cash than the item’s value generally if the bidding in a ten man starts at 50 gold, that’s 5 gold to you at the end without having to vendor the item. Per item. There are generally two or three in a ten man. If the bidding goes higher, you get more. The more is bid by the wealthy, the less they have to bid with later. If you were running the raid for money, anyway, you may just get more than otherwise simply because of the growing pool money. Admittedly, if everyone in the group is doing this the effective bidding price on BoE items increases while standard items decrease.
Also consider that alternate arrangements can be made at the begining of the raid. If you’re the undergeared one, say something and maybe people would be willing to let you have a piece or two. Myself and most of the people I raid with are more than happy to help keep an eye out for someone if they just say something. Yeah, the piece might complete my tanking set, but if you say something at the start of the run about it, I can delay getting that whatever for a bit, and often even just craft (or have) something of close value. And since raid items are tradeable for two hours, perhaps you can come to another arrangement with the winner. Harder at the early stages unless the leader is willing to split the pot part way through the long raid, but there are some people who would be willing to sell you an item they just “Bought”.
Before I close, I am curious: What happens to an item if no one bids on it? Perhaps all the tanks already have that piece or better, and there is no disenchanter in the group, or the effective cost of the shard is under the minimum bid? Not exactly a common situation, I would imagine, but just for the sake of curiousity, what if something like that should arise? (Druidguyy’s list of starting bids on his server comes to mind)
And lastly, if you don’t like it, just don’t use it. If there’s something you like better, and your friends like your system, go with it. Really. This is why Master Looter, or Need v Greed is not a Blizzard enforced system. Not everything suits everyone, every situation, or every group. That’s why they are called options (or choices if you prefer). There will always be methods that are “more fair”, at least to one type of player, at a cost of fairness to another type. That’s caled life.
By Teal on Sunday, November 8th, 2009 at 12:46 pm
I’ve seen this done several times on my server. They, however, all bid at the end of the run and (for the two raids ive been in) its a gold farmer with an English name.
Maybe this works for raiding guilds, but if I join a PUG, I expect a fair chance at gear no matter how much gold I have. If I contribute 4k dps and the undergeared person (in greens and blues) only does 1.5k, then I expect to roll on gear too. But, see I have 200g and he has 2000g. So i spend my time perfection my rotation, and he just bought gold off of someone else. How is this fair?
And for everyone saying that it is, YOU’RE THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE MONEY! The rest of us don’t.
By Iiene of Kul Tiras on Sunday, November 8th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
I can’t imagine this system working for anything else but PuGs.
In a guild environment, you’re automatically eliminating all the poor people from loot. Sure, you get some gold at the end of the run, but that gold will be spent on vanity pets, epic flyers for the 4th alt, etc before the next raid even starts.
The FIRST time a guild member who is loaded with gold bids, there will be a revolt.
By cocopuff on Sunday, November 8th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
you can say what you want you can inmpoy this in your raids you can do anything you want all i am saying that this is the worst destribution system ever
By Urziel on Sunday, November 8th, 2009 at 2:00 pm
@liene If you are in a guild that is using GDKP and your using your pot winnings on vanity pets, epic flying for an alt etc. before getting your main geared then with all due respect your priorities are just a little borked.
I have 4 guild banks: 1 @5 tabs 2@3 tabs and 1@2 tabs, 2 toons with epic flying, 2 toons with NR heirloom flying, and another with slow flying.
All told that comes to: 22,650 gold
4350 guild 1
850 guild 2
850 guild 3
350 guild 4
5000 epic
5000 epic
1000 old slow
1000 old slow
1000 cwf
1000 cwf
1000 cwf tome
1000 cwf tome
250 lowbie slow
22,650 gold spent
And no i have never purchased gold or even considered it. Do your dailys, play the AH. do these well and u will have cash for your GDKP runs.
By Fabrizi on Sunday, November 8th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
normally i won’t say stuff like this but, FUCK NO! to try to get gold from PUG’s is just low and if they don’t bid they don’t get loot. I personally only PUG when my guild isn’t running that particular raid that week and i don’t want to have to PAY for gear.
By 4KhazModan on Sunday, November 8th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
This will not work in a PUG because you do not know the RL. They could very easily run off with the pot never to be seen again. I would not be willing to put that much trust in a PUG RL
By Urziel on Sunday, November 8th, 2009 at 5:33 pm
@Khaz
As long as the loot rules are posted in raid if the RL/ML decides to renege on splitting the pot then a petition can be filed and the GM’s will FORCE the RL/ML to divvy up the cash. If anyone tries to organize a run and is not 100 percent transparent with loot rules in /raid then don’t go. Period.
There are trustworthy people running GDKP runs and they know their rep is on the line if they get greedy. If it’s not written in /raid it’s not official according to blizzard. So they can talk on all they want in Vent. in /raid it’s trackable and accountable.
By cocopuff on Sunday, November 8th, 2009 at 5:55 pm
my total game earnings are 35 grand yat at this moment my mage only hase 360g whear did all go? epic flyer, duel spec, normal flyer sent money to other characters, leveling my professions, repair, reagents, mats, buying gear, flights venity pets, flyers and landmounts, respecs debts and other stuff i cant think of right now i have made a third of my earnings from quest (dailys excluded) another big chunk of it is the AH and then dailys owcurse once in a while ill stumble into a really pricy piece of gear btu tahts very rair lately the books of glyph mastery have really sucked me dry the point is their is allways something to blown money on do really need another one?
By Flann on Sunday, November 8th, 2009 at 7:38 pm
SKG > DKP. Period.
By cocopuff on Sunday, November 8th, 2009 at 8:51 pm
i just realized this is a form of virtual manopoly this how bloomberg won his third term
By Aleyromillen on Sunday, November 8th, 2009 at 9:01 pm
@heartbourne: good luck introducing GDKP to your guild, and hopefully to your server. It really is a very effective, very fair system.
@haters: you simply have no idea what your missing. GDKP isn’t “just for ppl with no lives who farm gold”- in fact, its just the opposite. GDKP is an incredibly fast, efficient way to gear up your character, and on top of that, its an even faster way to get incredibly rich, incredibly fast. I’ve been attending GDKP PuGs on Blackrock(us) for months, and hosting them for weeks. Assuming average drops, you can easily make 3k in ~ 2 hours (the time it takes to run Totc25 and ony25). if you have the time to invest, naxx/ulduar combined could make you another 1k. , all without you spending a penny.
do that for a few weeks, and you can easily buy your way to BiS, head to toe… and the best part is, you’ve actually earned it.
I feel like an infomercial… but the fact of the matter is, it really is that good. before you jump to conclusions, go read the thread. Everyone gets paid, the amount they get paid is directly proportional to the raid’s perception of the quality of the items that drop, you have a great chance of earning excellent loot, and blizzard will step in and intervene if the raid leader ninjas. It really is a win/win situation.
By Veppy on Sunday, November 8th, 2009 at 11:18 pm
I didn’t read all the comments, but the top ones crying how much this system sucks are idiots.
This is WAY better than normal dkp. If you have a lot of money, you will get all the items you want - on the first run. The pool of money to be divided after the raid might not be that big. But if you’re poor, some idiot who has 50g in his bag, ’cause you don’t know how piss-easy money is in WoW , you’re in for a treat.
If a boss drops an average of 3 items and there are for example 5 bosses in ToC, that’s 15 items. If every item goes to the dude who’s rolling in gold for a meager average price of 250g, that’ll make the pool a total of 3750g. That divided to 25 people equally will be 150g.
So if you’re poor, next time you’re bringing 200g to the raid instead of 50g. This gives you a possibility to bid up to that amount, obviously. And if there was someone with lets say 900g in the raid, he now has 1050g. The next time you raid, the bids will go up. The average price of all items shoots up to 500g. 15 items of 500g does 7500 and the share of everyone after the raid is 300g. So if you still got 0 items, you will now have 500g. That’s 10 times the amount you had on first run.
Each time the prices go up for as long as there are people who really want the items and have the money to pay for them. If you haven’t gotten a single item, you’ll have become rich. If you continue running GDKP runs, the average value of the items will be lower since less people want them - so they’ll cost just a fraction of the money you’ve made so far. That leaves you with money AND items.
It server everyone. The real players who have enough brains to know how to make money easily without farming will get their items first AND the casual idiots who can’t do anything themselves will get rich and geared in the long run if they have even enough brains to keep doing the GDKP-runs.
Disclaimer: I’m not saying all casuals are idiots. But the casuals who have 50g in their bags for months on end obviously are.
By barduck on Sunday, November 8th, 2009 at 11:49 pm
With a looting system like that your basicly having people braking the rules because they are bound to get gold from goldsellers and therefore risking their account and possibly their guild’s bank.
By Dibullba on Monday, November 9th, 2009 at 1:16 am
System is terrible. I have a lot of gold on my toon, but even I can not agree to this. First reason being that you pay “upfront”. By doing so the loot master can make use of the gold gained from items off the first few bosses and then use that gold to outbid the raid on any item. Technically by doing so, he is gaining gear by paying himself. Results become people go flat broke, raid leader ninjas loot, and it is justified. Second reason is based on progression. This system allows you to bid on ANY items as the raid leader won’t care what you gain as long as your paying for it. Results become stunted progression cause people spent there gold on pieces they won’t even use which is bound to happen even if its only one or two people. And lastly, BoE gear. The gear is sold at AH price…. why in the hell should I bid on a BoE piece of gear just for it to be inflated more when i could just buy it from the AH.
By Aleyromillen on Monday, November 9th, 2009 at 7:20 am
@barduck: this system does *not* require buying gold from gold sellers. many people are “rich” by purely conventional means- crafting, enchanting, and jewel crafting are highly lucrative, along with working the auction house market, and of course, grinding dailies.
@Dibullba: if a raid leader were to use the proceeds from early items to buy out later items, he would come up short when it was time to distribute out the gold to everyone at the end of the run, and would then be 1.) ridiculed, 2.) reported for running a scam. There are blue posts on both EU and US forums confirming this exact issue. As for people bidding on any item- this does accomplishes the exact opposite of that. people only pay their hard earned gold for things that they will actually use. And finally, for BoE gear- most of the time, if a BoE drops, it sells for slightly less than the AH price, because the buyer is hoping to still make a slight profit on the AH. The difference is that now, instead of a single person making 1k profit (just as an example) because they were lucky enough to win the roll, 24 people share the 800g that the person paid in GDKP, and the high bidder makes 200g on the item. everyone wins (except the AH buyer who bought the item for 1k- if he came on the GDKP run,he might have been able to get it for 850g!).
don’t take my word for it. Read about it on the thread that the author posted, which references successful runs on dozens of servers :http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t77416-gdkp_run_discussion_spread_your_server/
By Iiene of Kul Tiras on Monday, November 9th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
Urzial:
“@liene If you are in a guild that is using GDKP and your using your pot winnings on vanity pets, epic flying for an alt etc. before getting your main geared then with all due respect your priorities are just a little borked.”
You misunderstand. I would be the guy with all the gold getting every drop I want. Then next week? I would have earned it all right back. I think the system would be great!
As such, the only guild that would be able to use the system, is one filled with gold barons. in 95% of guilds, people like me would be instantly vilified and the system dropped.
PuGs, on the other hand, would work great! I would love to see Gold PuGs on my server. The system, when communicated up front, is bonded by the fact that exploiting an agreement like that is an actionable offense.
By n00b hater on Tuesday, November 17th, 2009 at 8:44 pm
This is the greatest dkp system EVER!!! I didnt spend 1g on any items during my raid and I walked out of Uld 25 with over 1K gold. You n00bs need to read and at least try out before commenting.