Posted by iTZKooPA on Thursday, June 11th, 2009 - 29 Comments
Tags: Drama, e-drama, guild drama, loot drama, looting, naxxramas, pugs and loot, pugs in guild runs, PvE, raiding
Can I Be The Right Baby?
I’ve brought up my humble little guild a few times in the past. We’ve had our fair share of issues, but most of them have pertained to getting a raid going, let alone completing it. After some hardwork from the leaders, a few weeks of gear farming for new members and a fresh batch of core raiders, the guild is back on track and finally in Ulduar. We’ve come a long way from scrapping together 10-man Naxxramas raids earlier in the year, but we are still a very much a casual guild, at least by my standards. Casual or not, all guilds have their share of drama, and lately it has been surrounding the object of endless bickering, purpalz.
If there is anything that can instill a sense of hatred among guildmates, for no other reason than favor from the RNG, it is loot. Interesting and new encounters get players into raiding, but it is the off chance at a new piece of shiny armor, or a pointy new piece of metal, that keeps many of us coming back week after week. Insert some unskilled, unknown or otherwise “undeserving” players into the mix and you have all the ingredients for Drama Soup. Add a healthy dose of PUG to the recipe and you have yourself the chunkiest Drama Stew since the creation of The Real Housewives franchise. This is exactly what has been happening in Warriors of Faith lately.
I haven’t raided in almost two weeks, but previous to my E3 sabbatical we had a few nights that our heroic Naxxramas outings were filled in with PUGs. Some of the pick-ups were old friends or friends of guildies, so they were known to the group. Others were entire strangers, unfamiliar with our flavor of raiding, discussion and joking. All of which tend to be various forms of toilet humor and other unprintable topics. Don’t get me wrong, PUGs and everyone in the raid deserves a shot at the gear they helped create, but it irks me when some stranger picks up a piece of loot I have been after since our first clear. To make matters worse there is currently no restriction in my guild of how much loot any single player can take in a run, assuming the rules of the last raid I attended still stand. That is what really cooks my goose.
My last heroic Naxxramas clear saw a pair of PUGs pick up not one, not two, but five pieces of gear! As I said, I am all for giving our saviors (this is what they were since the raid would have been delayed, possibly even canceled, without them) their just dessert, but is it too much to ask for a limit? Sure, they saved our bacon, but the raid was still a guild run (20 or more guildies), not a PUG group.
I never PUG full raids so I am not sure what the norm is. Would imposing a limit of two class-based items or a single multi-class item be too far? How about a lower max roll for PUGs? If there is no restrictions to what an unfamiliar face can obtain, thus making everyone’s chance exactly the same, then why should members even bother with a guild run when they could run a raid at their leisure with the same chance at loot? Think about it. In my opinion gearing up members is what a guild run is for. PUGers are enticed by these oppurtunites for the fast clear, easy emblems and, naturally, a shot at some - often unwanted - loot.
What do the PUGers out there think about limits? How about other guilds who fill their ranks with the helpful populace? Does anyone place restrictions on what a PUG can roll on? Do you force them to roll lower (such as /random 75), fight over the scraps (unwanted loot), or pay them off with gold if they win a roll? Or are they simply privileged to be a part of such an amazing guild, even if it is just temporary?
A limited loot solution surely isn’t perfect, would cause loot and scoot syndrome, and a lower chance at winning would upset people from the start, but keeping guild members happy should be job #1 for the guild.
Related Posts: Switching Guilds: Hard to Say Goodbye, Are PUGs Actually Improving?, Keeping A Guild Together, A New Guild and the EPGP Loot System, WoW Life Lesson #27 - Have A Goal,
By DrPruz on Thursday, June 11th, 2009 at 11:09 am
I feel ya brother, I have seen many-a-piece got eh way of the PUG, but thats the fate of the RNG. I can’t believe there in no limit on the number of pieces one can take though. And more importantly, if someone else was rolling on these pieces, after 3 or 4, wouldn’t you as a PUG say, “I think I got enuf, you take this one”???
By Rogue4Life on Thursday, June 11th, 2009 at 11:11 am
Wow!! i am a little shocked you would “let” them get that many. While my guild is small and we lack in the healing department we are usually the “fillers” for other guilds runs.
Raids:
In the runs that I have joined for those that “need” the item you get one roll, if you win you do not get another piece till others of similar class or spec (dps, healz, tank) have received an item. Tier gear is different. Those that are still needing it may roll and it doesn’t go against your one item. We usually call it “main spec” or the spec you are running with the group. If no one wants it goes to second/dual spec’d for those that play more than one roll. Yes we have a healer and a tank switch rolls from week to week.
5mans/groups:
if we need to get a “filler” for a spot to run a Heroic we usually go with if you “need” it roll, otherwise greed. If no one “needs” it and we have someone available for DE that person DE’s it then we roll for shard.
we still have a few complaints from time to time, but loot is brought up before the run. don’t like it, /leave. Everyone should have a fair shot at the loot that drops if it will benefit there toon.
By Alayea on Thursday, June 11th, 2009 at 11:23 am
I’m surpised that your guild has such lax loot rules, since that’s practically begging for trouble.
“I never PUG full raids so I am not sure what the norm is.”
In my experience, the typical loot rule for a PUG on Malfurion is that you can only get one main spec item and one tier token. If no one rolls on an item for their main spec, then it becomes off-spec and there is no limit on how many off-spec gear you can get. (The latter part is how I got most of my enhance gear in Naxx 25, but only because I was very fortunate in that no one else was even rolling for off-spec.)
By Raknor on Thursday, June 11th, 2009 at 11:31 am
You have to be careful about setting a limit on loot. I have been in pugs that only allow 1 item per person. That suck, when you set the loot limit like that you run into the problem of..
1.) You, yourself pass on an item that is an upgrade, hoping for a drop later, and possibly not getting anything.
2.) If people can only loot 1 item than what stops them from leaving once they win their item?
By Kalaree on Thursday, June 11th, 2009 at 11:39 am
Here’s how our guild handles this:
We Master Loot blues and up. Everyone has the same eligibility to roll for loot with the following conditions, once you’ve gotten a main-spec item, you can’t get another until there’s something that no other main-spec’s want. We don’t differentiate between tier and epic loot. If you got an epic earlier in the run, you can’t go for the tier unless everyone else eligible for the piece also got an upgrade or has the piece already. If no main spec wants the item, then off-spec and secondary spec (from dual specc’ing) roll with the same ‘everyone gets stuff’ rule. We prioritize item main-specs based on wow-loot.com or over-ride if it’s obviously way off. These are the rules no matter if full guild run or half-guild and half PUG’s.
And yeah, sometimes we do give 4-5 pieces during a run to the same person, but it’s due to everyone else that could wear/use it having it or better.
By Eventime on Thursday, June 11th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
I almost always pug groups, because my guild doesn’t have nearly enough core players to do raids. Usually the deal is 2+ for items. You can get 2 main spec items before you can no longer roll. After that if nobody rolls for mainspec, offspec rolls are unlimited (and of course if you got your 2 items you can roll on offspec rolls even for mainspec). I think it’s a pretty fair system. Once I ran with a guild run and the loatheb trinket dropped, but i had already one 2 items. There were no hard loot rules and I won the roll, but passed to somebody else who hadn’t won anything yet that day. I think that’s just common raiding courtesy.
By Shamtastik on Thursday, June 11th, 2009 at 12:10 pm
“I came, I PUG, I loot”
Since the PL H-Side not a massive raid group yet, I still do PUGs to get new/better gears, and so far it follows the same rule, “NEED if needed, otherwise GREED” don’t blame people who NEED, just because you already GREED or PASSED ON. If you want and need it, go NEED, if you want but dont need it, go GREED, if you dont want it, PASS ON.
Less QQ, more pew pew IMO.
By Dulica on Thursday, June 11th, 2009 at 12:11 pm
I usually only run with my guild, maybe a few PUGs that we sort of know, but that’s about it. I know that if I don’t need it, can’t use it or I’ve already gotten a few nice things, I pass.
One guildie told me to stop passing once so that I’d have stuff to sell later on, but I do that very rarely. I hate to take things from people who need it/can use it. I once hit need on something with mana, and felt really bad when I won the roll and figured out that duh! I’m a warrior. Luckily it was all guildies, much higher than I, and they couldn’t really use it anyway.
Maybe because raiding/instances aren’t really my favorite thing about WoW and I usually just happen upon good gear.
By Furthur on Thursday, June 11th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
If you have guild members that don’t appreciate that the run happened from the get go then that shows how they feel about ‘team mentality’
As one who plays with a small group of real life friends and has a reputation for being solid in either spec I am invited to many raids and heroic binges weekly. I have passed on tier gear after rolling highest because some asshat says ‘it should stay in the guild’ in vent thinking i’m not listening.
When their GM and officers apologize for the kid’s comment I just remind them about what is important in the game..obviously to that kid its loot and loot only. I then place the nerd on iggy and go back to helping folks get their raid on
By Shnoo on Thursday, June 11th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
Learn to SK? That has to be the most fair looting system i know…. Get an item go to back of line.. you can roll on whatever you want.. but if some1 higher up in line wants it they get it automatically
I (on both rogue and pally) have had to (due to only being in a guild with RL friends) PUG to get every piece of 10 and 25 man gear i currently have, and it used to make me so mad when in a 25 man id have heroic shoulders and lose on a 25 piece when the guy who won already had 7.5.. its those kinds of things that set me off
By lawman30 on Thursday, June 11th, 2009 at 1:12 pm
I’ve been in PUGs and the loot rules have run the spectrum: Everyone can roll on anythig they can use, PUGs can roll on anything but Tier gear, limit of 1 win unless passed on by all others who could use it, etc….
I find it somewhat shocking to hear you admit, on the one hand, that but for the PUGgers the run might have been delayed or cancelled and then on the other hand to be upset that the PUG won the roll for the gear you’ve been after. If that’s chappin’ your backside so much tell your guild to get their $#!T straight and fill the runs. If they won’t the SURRENDER TO THE POWER OF THE PUG! =P Why are YOU raiding? For the gear? If so then set the rules accordingly. If you can’t get a run together under those rules that ought to tell you something.
By penrose on Thursday, June 11th, 2009 at 1:15 pm
If you can use now, NEED, otherwise GREED if you can DE. People who win GREED on purples that cannot DE are IMHO idiots. that 12g you are going to sell that for is a little less than the ~100g the abyss crystal will sell for. pfft.
Our rules are that you can NEED on things that are main spec only and armor appropriate for your class. (Pallies = Plate, Shamys = Mail, Druids = Leather).
One thing that irks me a little but I do see the fairness of it, is things like Druids (even Trees) cannot roll on cloth unless no clothies want. I am working on helping the leader understand that if you look at the Druid BIS sets, there are cloth pieces. Cloth is viable for tress and boomkins. But that is my personal issues.
Our GM and other raid leaders have no problem at all saying, “well, you already have 2 or 3 pieces, let someone else get some gear”. I think the way to handle it is to decide up front what is fair for everyone - not just the non-guildies - and reform your rules a but…. 5 pieces is a bit much…
By Lladnar of The Dark Menace (Detheroc) on Thursday, June 11th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
I have to say, as the officer of a guild that often pugs, the fariest loot solution is to roll Need for main spec if it’s an upgrade, Greed for off spec and pass if it’s not needed. That way if everyone passes it can also be sharded.
By elfennau on Thursday, June 11th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
On the other side of the cookie: When the loot for puggies is limited, what incentive do they have to come to your raids? There are two guilds I can think of off the top of my head that have a reputation on my home server for limiting loot for puggies. And from what I hear both guilds are having a harder and harder time finding puggies to fill those few extra slots in their raids…purely because of the reputation they’ve gathered amongst people who pug to raid. No one wants to put all that effort into a raid, the same as the guildies do, when they know they don’t have an equal chance at gear.
IMO, if loot restrictions are implemented in a guild, they should apply equally to guild members and puggies. Because you’re right about the fact that those puggies are saving your bacon, and they deserve to get the same chances as everyone else at the loot.
By zinrod on Thursday, June 11th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
I’m currently not playing the game - I quit at Wotlk release - but I raided for so long that this blog brings back so many memories. Loot distribution is one of the major problem in this game and is usually the reason people will quit a guild and cause drama. It can be very different from guild to guild, especially if you are playing with people you don’t know in RL.
I used to consider myself very hardcore raider, but not to the point to get elitist and argue with people about their skills and judge if they deserve loot or not. After playing for 4 years, I got to the point that getting loot was the least of my priority. During the last months that I played, I was more into PvP and pugging some raids to help people out. When you raid for fun and enjoy killing bosses, loot doesnt matter at all.
I can’t remember how many times I passed on loot because I knew that the guild I was helping had a hard time to build their core group and deserved it better than me. As a pugger, I always considered the raid as experience and a way to get myself a good reputation on my server. If I really wanted the loot, I would get recruited by the guild.
The people who raids just for the loot are the same who cries at every expansion about how their gear is now useless. This game is about having fun, when someone cares too much over loot, he shouldn’t play the game at all.
By Jrakthorn on Thursday, June 11th, 2009 at 3:09 pm
perhaps you should consider merging guild runs? i mean sure you dont get all guildies in there, but at least not some random pug gets it. plus you might end up becoming partners with the guild you merged with.
By Ommadon on Thursday, June 11th, 2009 at 4:18 pm
I think that a Loot Council is the most fair. Have the raid leader(s) check EVERY raid member before hand, get a good idea of what each person has, then when something drops give it to the person who can use it the most.
I gave up 3 pieces of gear to the other tank in a Naxx 10 run once, only because he needed them more than I did.
If you go into a raid knowing that you are gonna get some gear because you are undergeared, then it makes it more enjoyable when you do gear up.
On the other hand, if you’re a PuG person and you know that you are overgeared and just there to help and get badges, then it will likely cause less drama because you knew from the beginning that other people need to be geared more than you need some spare gold.
By onthebuses on Thursday, June 11th, 2009 at 4:26 pm
Rules in my guild when raiding are simple. Say you have a 2 hunters roll on one item, the hunter who gets it then cant roll on the next hunter item. Hence the other hunter getting it. On things such as OS 25, the same rules apply really. OFC if there is a problem where 2 of the same item drops for a class we dont have, in a 10 man, we let the person who is running an alt in the guild of that class take it. Its all fair. But in PUGS which I have done several times, i have seen things such as Raid Leaders give an item to a m8 or something, and not take any notice of the actual rolls taking place. I have seen DKs roll on hunter items :O and get rewarded with it. /lame.
By Kyle on Thursday, June 11th, 2009 at 5:40 pm
well, i know who I am NOT gonna be raiding with anytime soon…sheesh, get more people in your guild if you don’t want to deal with pugs
By Dinaus on Thursday, June 11th, 2009 at 9:17 pm
I never roll on anything I don’t need for the toon I’m currently playing at the time, so it spares me a lot of drama right there. That way, when I do actually roll on something, the other people figure it must be something I could use and don’t gripe all that much. If everyone passes on an item, I might pick i up if no one else does. But then, I look at it as a game, and not something to be taken seriously, ever. That’s probably why I’ll never hit the gold cap, ever, but I’m ok with that.
By bk on Thursday, June 11th, 2009 at 10:36 pm
we have this like 13ish yo who every time he wins gear he has this very irritating laugh and every time he loses gear he cries about it for the rest of the run
“REMEMBER I LOST ON THAT CLOAK CAN I PLZZZZ HAVE ENVOY OR MORTALITY!!!!!!!!!!”
annoying kid: rolls 12
“NO ONE ROLL PLZZZZZ I LOST THE CLOAK!!”
BK: rolls 78
“WTF i WANTED THATTT”
BK: “To bad it’s hunter lewts now, maybe ill pass if you stop crying like a b!tch”
“F U it’s just as good for fury warriors”
BK recieves loot Envoy of Mortality
yeah i love raiding with my guild =/
By soule on Thursday, June 11th, 2009 at 10:47 pm
After quite a few guild blow ups, I mainly pug all my gear.
I find that most people don’t have an issue with
1 Need
1 Tier
Unlimited Greed (when no one wants the item)
If we allow needing regardless of spec, which we often do, we let everyone know a head of time.
We often make exceptions and allow a player to 2 needs if they are going to pass on all tiers.
I find the tricky part of a PUG is when a player is only going for one piece. We will usually ask the raid ahead of time, if playerX is only here for one piece will everyone pass on it, if it drops. Sometimes this is fine, sometimes it’s QQ.
Most people are fine with these rules, as long as they know ahead of time. (most people) Make the rules, stick to them.
The best thing is if you PUG, try to PUG with people you know.
By Rhev (Koopa's GM) on Friday, June 12th, 2009 at 4:54 am
I hate pugging people in our guild raids.
But we are a casual guild, if people don’t log on, we can either pug or we can cancel a raid, and I hate doing that MORE then I hate pugging.
By SR71 on Friday, June 12th, 2009 at 9:58 am
Nice picture.
IMO NEW and RANDOM PUGs in guild runs shouldn’t expect an equal chance at tier loot, or even the general loot. The only reason they were brought on board was because they answered a call to arms before some other guy.
Now if they are commonly called upon that is an entirely different story, because they have earned their keep. Either way, the looting rules and whatever restrictions the raid wants to imply, should just be made clear from the get go. How could they whine if they were already informed?
By Sam on Friday, June 12th, 2009 at 10:51 am
Our guild VERY rarely attempts to call on PUGs, but in general the loot goes: guild first, puggers if nobody else wants.
While this sounds really unfair to the puggers, we’re generally very well geared and DE a lot of stuff when there aren’t any puggers in the raid. We’re also pretty considerate of other players gearing needs and will pass on small upgrades if it is a big upgrade to someone else.
By Athelias on Saturday, June 13th, 2009 at 12:09 am
i was doing a 10 man OS and this one pug got upset that, even though he got another epic epic, when he rolled highest on the emblem bag he didn’t get. as leader i give normal bag and emblem bag to someone who hasn’t got any other epic but this guy chucked a tanty!
By Sardit on Saturday, June 13th, 2009 at 5:56 pm
i’ve pugged most of my raids, and in all fairness, there was never any restriction. The only requirement is MS prio over OS. and forced equip on BOE’s.
I’ve geared up to full t 7 in just two raids. But in all fairness it also doesn’t sit well with me if a green blue guy doing 1500dps max is getting a t 7.5 item i really wanted aswell. It is however the faith of rng, can’t do anything about it.
We don’t have any rules in my guild either, just roll if you need it. Though i usually tend to propose a pass if a player with low raid time wins the good stuff that can also gear up a dedicated player with a lot of raiding time in guild.
We do have a dkp system in place, but currently only 6 or 7 players have acumulated enough dkp to use them on gear, and those are already pretty much decked out for most stuff. So they don’t need it.
Unfortunately i’m the one never getting to roll at all in raids since my guild runs never provide any upgrades i haven’t farmed from pugs already.
By aadjed on Monday, June 15th, 2009 at 12:37 am
Im in a casual guild that runs naxx10, but pugs naxx25. We have 2 dedicated tanks n 2 dedicated healers, dps is easily pugable. Unlike most raids on out server, we dont care about achievements, but do ask for gear.
I got most my gear from naxx25, only my waist is still naxx10 level. We running raids, pass on most of the drops, since i dont need much anymore. But i do get pissed off if i dont win the T7.5 tokens for chest n gloves i still need.
By Drudesa on Monday, June 29th, 2009 at 8:22 am
I raid with my guild and if we have to PUG the odd player to fill out the slots we do. Loot is alwats done by loot master, Main spec rolls first (if you are in the raid as a healer - that is your main spec for the raid etc). then offspec, then DE. Anyone can roll as long as its an upgrade and relevent spec. The lootmaster dose check (ie if a dps warrior tries to roll main spec on a tank plate item etc). But any PUG members get the same chance as any Guild members.
I have also PUG’ed with other guilds for the ocational 25 man. Most of these guilds usually have some sort of DKP system in place for their members, which is quite hard to implement on a Pug. One of the best systems i’ve seen is a straight roll initially of anyone who wants it for main spec, both guildies who will bid dkp for it and pugs who wont. If a pug wins it then they get the item, if any of the guildies win the roll, then the item gose to their dkp bidding system and all of those that rolled must then bid dkp to get it. So basically a pug roller has an equal chance of getting the item as if they were rolling in any other pug raid. The more guildies who need the item and are prepared to bid dkp on it, the more likely the item will go to a guildie. eg if 5 people need the item, and one is a pug, the pug has a 20% chance (1/5) to get the item, the guild has a 80% chance to get it (4/5). Once its in that guild system dkp then decides who actually gets it out of those 4 rollers.
If your raiding as a pug you have equal rights to any other indavidual raider in the raid, regardless of guild or not guild. If a guild raid rules says a 1 item limit for a raid, and it applies to all raid members then that is fair enough. If you apply it only to pug members, then it is certainly not fair and why the hell should they hang around after winning an item?