Posted by BigRedKitty on Monday, March 2nd, 2009 - 46 Comments
Tags: aces high, BT, bwl, flame wreath, Hyjal, kara, Karazhan, maiden of virtue, mc, naxx, naxxramas, Raid, raids, shade of aran, Sunwell, tier 7, tier 8, Ulduar, vehicles, zg
A long, long time ago, in Stranglethorn Vale, our guild started Zul’Gurub. At the same time, the elite guilds had finished ZG, Molten Core, Black Wing Lair, and were doing AQ20, AQ40 and Naxxramas. We had Dungeon Set 0 and epic PvP gear, they were decked out in Tier 3. There was a huge chasm of raiding experience and gear-level between us and them.
A long time ago, in the Caverns of Time, our guild finished Mount Hyjal. At the same time, the elite guilds had completed Black Temple and Sunwell. We had 4/5 Tier 5 and they were decked out in Tier 6. There was a significant difference in gear-level and raiding experience between us and them.
As of this week, our guild has completed all 10- and 25-man raiding content in WotLK. The only challenges left in front of us are Sartharion with two and three drakes up, and some raiding achievements. The elite guilds have finished the “hard modes,” but there is no raid-boss they’ve seen that we haven’t. We are 13/15ths of the way to being totally decked-out in Tier 7.5 gear - they have a better necklace and trinket than we do. They also have the gun from Kel’Thuzad, those rotten {expletive (plural) deleted}. There is no real difference in gear-level, and while they have many more years of end-game content raiding experience than we do, we’ve walked where they’ve walked in the new expansion, and not years after they have.
So what’s the deal? We’ve heard over and over that the content is easier.
Bullpucky. We remember our first kills in Karazhan. We remember going to Maiden and being sure it was going to take many hours to kill her. We remember warning the guild that wipes were the price of success. Then, we one-shot her. /kapow!
“Don’t move when Flame Wreath is cast!” And if you didn’t move, and you had the DPS, you’d beat Shade of Aran. Learning the skill took time, as did getting a high enough raid-DPS, but once the skill was learned, never again did a movement fight cause as much fear. Thaddius in Naxxramas is a movement fight, and people don’t freak out about that guy nearly as much as they did about Shade of Aran.
The problem with Karazhan was two-fold:
First, an entirely new population of WoW-players suddenly had access to raiding content, and they weren’t used to it.
Second, in a 40-person raid, you can have a screw-up. In a 10-person raid, a single person could easily wipe everything.
So in old-school raiding, the old-school raiders learned to raid as they were “carried” through Molten Core. They made mistakes, they were mostly hidden, and the raid kept on trucking. By the time they got to Karazhan, they knew how to raid and thus breezed through it.
In contrast, a new generation of players learned to raid in 10-man Karazhan, and they learned to raid as they wiped. Karazhan was hard, not because of the difficulty of the content, but because individual mistakes were magnified and the results were much more severe.
Was Gruul or Magtheridon much harder than Karazhan? No, because these 25-person raids required Karazhan-geared people to attempt them. And once you’ve gotten gear from Karazhan, you probably knew how to behave in a raid. The difference between 10- and 25-person raiding isn’t much, the only difference is in specific people learning their specific roles. Once the trick of the boss is mastered, the basic raid skills needed are already known. (i.e. don’t stand in the fire or the black circle, don’t take aggro from the tank, etc.)
Then we get to WotLK and the new Naxxramas. Is 10-person Naxx easier than Kara was? Yes. Is it because the content is easier? We say No. We say that people crushed Naxx with such relative ease because there were no new skills needed to defeat the place. If you raided Kara, you could raid Naxx. There is no skill needed for Naxx that was not taught in Kara.
And who didn’t raid Kara? What percentage of people who are raiding Naxx do you think didn’t step foot in Kara? Five percent?
That means ninety-five percent of the people with their eyes set on Naxxramas just had to level to 80, then they’d have the gear and the Kara-learned raiding knowledge to defeat the place. And they did, foshizzle.
So now we have the promise of Ulduar. What’s the big scary thing there? Vehicle-mounts for combat. /shudder
What fight do we have right now with something like vehicle-mounts? Malygos.
What raid boss do people dislike the most? Malygos. Why? Phase three - The drakes.
People dislike the drakes because they don’t get to play their own class, and because it’s a new mechanic. We love Naxx because it’s just an extension of Kara. We’ve mastered Kara, so Naxx is easy. We have never had a vehicle-mount boss before, so people hate learning Malygos.
Defeating one, two, and three drakes-up Sartharion is a matter of gear, positioning, and DPS. All three of these things are easily comprehended by Kara-experienced raiders, and thus three drakes-up Sartharion, while technically a much greater challenge than Malygos, does not inspire the same dread and hostility as Malygos does.
Ulduar is bringing vehicle-mount boss fights to an entire new level, like it or not. What are you going to do about it? Are you going to farm Naxx for fun and profit? Are you going to go for the hard-mode achievements and beat 10-person Sartharion with three drakes up? Or are you going to practice your vehicle-mount combat skills in Malygos?
Just as the Aces High! daily is practice for Malygos, so is Malygos himself practice for Ulduar. If you have the choice, we recommend you get your happy little tuckus out to Borean Tundrea every week, do both 10- and 25-person Malygos, not so much for the gear, but to get used to the dynamic. The skills you learn in Malygos are going to prepare you Ulduar, just like Kara prepared you for Naxx.
Related Posts: BigRedKitty: Baby Hunter 4, BigRedKitty: Baby Hunter 2, Emblems: Heroism, Valor, and Conquest!, BigRedKitty: Baby Hunter 1, Hunters, Do You Need More DPS? Shot Rotation Macro,
By Nextgener on Monday, March 2nd, 2009 at 4:21 pm
Interesting, a funny
By SaintGermain on Monday, March 2nd, 2009 at 4:26 pm
Welcome BigRedKitty.
We’ll have to go pwn some Naxx 25 soon.
Saint
By Kinux on Monday, March 2nd, 2009 at 4:32 pm
I completely agree with everything said here. You guys really hit the nail on the head.
By sevink on Monday, March 2nd, 2009 at 4:32 pm
Welcome bigredkitty!
By Nextgener on Monday, March 2nd, 2009 at 4:33 pm
Well now that I’ve stolen the “F” comment on this page, time for serious business.
While I Do agree that people complain too much about end game, the reason the game can be considered easier is because classes have converged into becoming more like other classes.
What was your best bet for beating timers in ZA? A Pally Tank.
What was the best AOE Healing Class? Priests.
Who was the most OP Class? Warlocks. (too many demons)
Now, these are potentially gone. All classes have become similar, and this is a Good thing. Each class has, since say 1 complained “OMFG, OP, I Want That!” or “I can’t do this but You can, not fair”.
No one can complain 1 class has a handle over another at this point. Blizz is trying to make it so that each class can take on each situation and make sure it requires Skill not class. in 40 mans, you would require Class, but you had 40 people so that was No Problem. Now, everything presents a challenge, and if you can’t take that challenge, it’s your fault, not the situation, Yours.
Sure, people may say they’ve beaten end game. But have they gotten Glory of a Raider, and Heroic: Glory of a Raider? Answer That first.
By Ommadon on Monday, March 2nd, 2009 at 4:35 pm
Well, I would like to say that I am one of that 5% that never raider before. EVER. And it looks and sounds so exciting, and I am very happy that my guild is going to start. This is very good advice for those of you who are planning on attacking Ulduar, and I hope that the percent of people who haven’t raided can drop to 0.
By kyle on Monday, March 2nd, 2009 at 4:38 pm
wait is this BRK from Bigredkitty.net?
By Juggynaut on Monday, March 2nd, 2009 at 4:39 pm
It’s difficult for me to say if Naxx is easier than Kara, because those of us who ran the raid have a lot more experience under our belts. Then again, it took much longer for me to even dare to step foot into Kara, mainly because that was with TRG who at the time was much more casual than we are now.
Naxx feels easier, but I can’t tell if that’s because our group is better or not.
I guess we’ll have to see how Ulduar treats us. Maly is easy for me!
By Juggynaut on Monday, March 2nd, 2009 at 4:40 pm
@kyle the one and only
By Mattb4rd on Monday, March 2nd, 2009 at 4:44 pm
Outstanding!
Well done BRK
By Profano on Monday, March 2nd, 2009 at 5:17 pm
First off.. welcome to Project Lore.
Secondly.. I will have to agree.. the change between 40 mans to 10 magnified alot.. but it also made it so that you play a bigger role and feel needed.
I look forward to Uldar and hope it will be as fun as the rest.
By Lindyen on Monday, March 2nd, 2009 at 5:18 pm
well, as I started playing towards the end of bc… I have never done a raid in my life… thus when I hit 80(which is about half a level away) I will have to try and figure it all out…
thus I dread hitting 80… and so I have been 79 for like 2 weeks now…. : / so im in the 5%
By zoova on Monday, March 2nd, 2009 at 5:23 pm
i totally agree with ommadon i too am 1 of the 5% and lke him my guild is about to start /cheer
great advise and welcome bigredkitty
By CappyG on Monday, March 2nd, 2009 at 5:28 pm
“Second, in a 40-person raid, you can have a screw-up. In a 10-person raid, a single person could easily wipe everything.”
Easily one of the most important statements in the post, and exceptionally well said. This is a realization myself and a few other guildies have come to recently. With 3.1 and Ulduar around the corner it’s time to start pushing 25 man runs & the fights in Occulus and Malygos.
By Sno on Monday, March 2nd, 2009 at 5:46 pm
Kara ….. good times
By Conxcore on Monday, March 2nd, 2009 at 6:30 pm
welcome BRK!
foshizzle
By PROJECT LORE ROCK!!!!!!!!!! on Monday, March 2nd, 2009 at 7:07 pm
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By Zbubs on Monday, March 2nd, 2009 at 7:14 pm
Not trying to undermine PL or anything but if any1 who is in that 5% and is nervous, they shud pop over to tankspot.com’s project marmot.
although it’s kind of a spoiler to watch the fight before you do it, it removes that sense of nervousness and makes sure that you know what you’re doing.
from personal experience the difference i noticed mostly from kara to naxx (and from TBC to WOTLK) was the sudden and strange occurrence that it seemed that all CC need disappeared.
has any1 else noted this as a general trend?
By Josh(the Original one) on Monday, March 2nd, 2009 at 7:52 pm
That was single handlely the best blog posted on this site ever. It was crisp and it had a point and i agree with all the points you made. Good job
By Name on Monday, March 2nd, 2009 at 8:05 pm
WoW is easier I alreayd ended my subscription
By Rogue4Life on Monday, March 2nd, 2009 at 8:08 pm
@ Zbubs
depending on the gear of the group CC has disappeared. If you are teaching someone something it is nice, but I have yet to be “asked” for a sap. Hell the only reason I do sap is because I have it macro’ed with my pickpocket, we just AoE stuff to death now.
As for the blog. I can’t decide if it was a rant or just BRK telling a good concensus on how “easy” WotLK is. I do agree, experience is the key. Have you raided before or haven’t you. That really tells you or helps you get through the instances. Right now it seems all people want is quicker runs to the 10/25mans and if you aren’t above 2k or even 2.5k in dps you get the boot. The trick is to find some friends and run with them (whether in guild or not) then when the 10/25mans come up you will get the invite. Nothing wrong with being a filler, when something nice drops you have a good chance to get it if the others have been doing it for a while.
What I really think will make Ulduar as he said using the vehicles is what people really need to get used to. It is going to take some work and coordination to get it down and PuG’s just aren’t going to happen that much. Also, though with the 3.1 patch will be the duel spec. It will be nice to be able to switch rolls as some people can play any class spec. What will be tough is those that have always done Healing or tanking and don’t really know how to do the other. And when they do something wrong how bad they will be pointed out for it. That is why the dps guys don’t care, we always get yelled at anyway.
Look forward to your next post BRK and welcome to PL.
By Rayl-Drenden on Monday, March 2nd, 2009 at 10:02 pm
BRK you are on my server LOL i have better gear than you =D (Drenden server)(Rayl-Fallen) talk to me some time =)
By Lanca on Monday, March 2nd, 2009 at 10:37 pm
I absolutely agree. When PuGs ask me if I know how to play I link my completed “Rapid Defense” achievement. If they get my point I know I’m in a good group.
By Moose on Monday, March 2nd, 2009 at 10:55 pm
Well BRK from the looks of the responses I’d say that it may have been more like 10% that didn’t see kara instead of 5, but either way I’m one of them. I didn’t pick the game up till after sunwell came out, didn’t ding 70 till just before wrath went live. I never got to see Kara.
All of that being said I think that there is another part of the whole Naxx is easysauce thing that you didn’t touch on. Kara (from what I understand) was a big gear check. If you were a warlock or frost mage you didn’t go in there until you had 3/3 Frozen Shadoweave, and possiably 2/2 spellstrike. I’m not sure about other classes but from what I understand there was alot of work gearwise to be done just to step foot into kara, much less succeed.
Contrast that with todays Naxx and you see that it’s not as much of a gear check. You can be hit/def capped with quest rewards and a few easy to aquire BOE crafted items as soon as you ding 80 and be in Naxx right away. There isn’t so much gear grinding that you really need to do pre-naxx so everyone is setting foot into the place with all the gear needed to be sucessful. Sure, there are some hard fast rules about what your toon needs to have (hit cap/def cap/AP/HP/SP depending on your class) but those benchmarks are very easy to come by as long as you know what stats you’ll need while you’re questing to 80.
Oh, and BRK, the cower bug is working as intended.
By kiley on Monday, March 2nd, 2009 at 11:03 pm
Great blog, i have to say i completely agree. Kara was simply practice for Naxx, just as Malygos is practice for Ulduar.
By Nebyula on Tuesday, March 3rd, 2009 at 12:18 am
I don’t know how much I agree with, I jumped right into naxx having never done kara before, and we had no troubles.
And the needed gear to do it is also fairly low, I was in all blues.
By Mizos on Tuesday, March 3rd, 2009 at 12:43 am
i’m in that 5% who has never seen kara, but ive been raiding naxx for about 2 weeks now and i love it. in fact i already top the damage list as BM =p
By Jason on Tuesday, March 3rd, 2009 at 2:13 am
I’d be in that 5%. I’d only done Kara one, only to about 4 or 5 bosses. I never even did heroics befor, but with the new content I’m doing great. A peice of T7 gear, a few Naxx peices, and the best none raid gear there is.
I’m not having problems with the raiding, other then being on (work sigh…) I’v clear most of Naxx, with missing a boss here and there.
By soopershammy on Tuesday, March 3rd, 2009 at 3:52 am
@Moose
I totally agree, to step into kara you did need to run the heroics for weeks collecting badges of justice and BoP epics to even stand a chance, there were even a few bosses thrown in for a ‘gear check’.
I feel cheated by the new endgame content as it appears to have been dumbed down.
I also dont understand the whole 10 - 25 man versions of the same content. I think we all got tired of kara runs and that was only 1 dungeon.. now we’re being made to run the same dungeon twice a week… boring.
I and most people feel that a boss you as a guild/group have struggled on (over weeks in some cases) is a much more satisfying kill than a boss you one shot or take down after a few wipes.
This isn’t all down to experience (although it does play a big part), this is down to unimaginative bosses and Blizz’ ever increasing need to make the content available for all.
By Gerandor on Tuesday, March 3rd, 2009 at 8:03 am
Very nice post
I’ve recently, with a friend, started a new raiding guild on my server, and i sure as *bad word* hope that atleast most of them have done some raiding before 
By Lawman30 on Tuesday, March 3rd, 2009 at 8:34 am
@soopershammy
10/25 man versions of the same content are not present to force you to run the same content twice. They are present to allow people who play a little more casually or who don’t have as much time to play to see the same content as it is far easier and quicker to get a 10 man group together than it is to get a 25 man group together.
10 mans are a TOTAL blessing for a person like me. The time I have available to play (due to RL responsibilities) is sparse at best. For me to be able to get into the game and get into a 10 man raid quickly allows me the chance to see the content I might otherwise not have had the chance to see.
And I think I am in part of the majority of the 11 million who play the game when I say that I prefer to down a boss after a couple of wipes while learning tactics so that I can keep progressing versus spending weeks trying to down a boss. I will never have that kind of time to commit to the game. I’m all for Blizz making 25 mans harder in and of themselves, as well as adding hard modes (i.e. Sarth 3D, etc.), in order to keep the hardcore happy with challenges. But don’t begrudge me for wanting an opportunity to see the sme things in-game as you.
I have nothing but TOTAL respect for a player that I see on a Plagued Proto Drake. Hardocore. No doubt about it. They are “better” at the game than me. Still doesn’t mean that I shouldn’t get to see endgame content in some form.
By Krytus on Tuesday, March 3rd, 2009 at 9:42 am
@ Nebyula: If you were in blues, thank your friends for carrying you through Naxx.
@soopershammy: I rather have a lot of option to gear my toon in order to see other content than “run the heroics for weeks [months?] collecting badges of justice and BoP epics to even stand a chance”
Older times were better…. it´s rubish. Its pretty common to see that kind of posts from the “hard core” raiders… 40 man raids were better, Kara was srs bsns, Naxx it’s way toooo easy. I really enjoy playing what I feel to. Run some heroics or be able to PUG an OS, Vault or Naxx, grind some reputation for gear or buy BOE purples. There are several paths and I can choose the one I like to play
Welcome BRK!
By teeters on Tuesday, March 3rd, 2009 at 10:50 am
tis very true
unfortunatly my guild is slightly behind in the raiding scene did our first naxx 10 run on saturady twas bad lol tho i’ve puged naxx, VoA, and OS in both 10 man and 25 not done maylgos yet 
i rli want to cus i love vehicle fights (wintergrasp, oculus and strand of ancients) love the fact tht its differnet and u need to change u’r play style 
every1 else i know hates it tho lol
and acctualy i had only been to kara twice not even geting past shade of aran so i’m pretty much a noob to raiding so is alright for me i picking up the old asppects and the new all at once
By Drall on Tuesday, March 3rd, 2009 at 11:51 am
Hey BRK! Nice to see you around!
By Ivan on Tuesday, March 3rd, 2009 at 11:52 am
Awesome advice guys! When I’ve herd about Ulduar I was scared about vehicle combat before raid itself, now I know that I should practice on Malygos, instaed of rushing in croud of MOBs on bike or tank. TY!
By Sardit on Tuesday, March 3rd, 2009 at 5:54 pm
well i’m one of those 5% aswell and tbh in my guild of 80 players there are only 3 that have pre wotlk raid experience. And tbh i find raids quite challenging. though i think that has more to do with the terrible pugs i’ve been in. I did some reading on the forums and it seems 2k dps is the consensus for individual members. I’ve been in pugs where there were maybe 2 players getting that high and where most didnt even break 1.5k ( consensus of dps for hc instances ) If those epic geared players find they have no challenge, they should consider pugging for a bit. Just join any of the desperate groups trying to get 10 man together and see how that goes. I bet they’d find that a challenge.
By Prower on Wednesday, March 4th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
tbh I would argue that despite all of the EXP gaind in kara naxx is still techicaly easier.
ever fallen half asleep during heigan and got slap by the floor for it?
if you have, you begin to understand, it don’t kill you, infact you have to be hit by two consecutivly to die. in what is the only thing that fight realy tests.
I guess I have to agree though, sappion was allot easyer to avoid the blizzards after the time spent getting the nack for it doging fire for archimonde!
By Tona on Wednesday, March 4th, 2009 at 10:50 pm
Well, in your post it says you haven’t done Sarth 3D yet, so I guess its excusable, but Maly is so much easier than 3D.
Maly is incredibly easy. The only excuse to wipe is if you let yourself die because you didn’t meet the 6minute mark for that achievement.
The vehicle fight in Ulduar also looks like a joke. So far, of the 3 PTR bosses I’ve tried, the only hard part was learning the bosses’ attacks/debuffs/etc.
I hope your guild eventually gets to 3D, but if you think Maly is hard, well, maybe you should just keep working on that for now.
By HP on Friday, March 6th, 2009 at 8:59 am
Am I the only one that likes Phase 3? I tend to only need to heal but it’s pretty cool =) I also like riding around shooting stuff in wintergrasp on the big ass demolishers. It’s so fun!!
By Ardor on Friday, March 6th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
Have to say if Malygos is practice for Ulduar my days playing are probably numbered.
There are much better ways to improve content than by adding gimmicks and games within games. If I wanted to play a flight simulator or tank simulator I’d play one. The movement mechanics are awful.
Far better to actually make the content dynamic, make it less possible to memorize the “stand here, walk here, press button A” routines that make the content predictable.
Why not modular content? If you go into instance “A” you can’t be sure the content will follow the same path it did last time, that each boss will spawn in the same place, that Boss X is always followed by Boss Y. What’s wrong with Boss Y not always using the same abilities from fight to fight? Unscript it! Make us adapt on the fly.
Folks will memorize Ulduar and the tricks just as they do Malygos now. There is so much slush in the movement ranges and targeting it’s ridiculous. There are game engines made for action, there are games engines made for exploration and groups … trying to cram both into the same one is like trying to teach a boar to fly. It doesn’t work and annoys the boar.
By Dediare on Friday, March 6th, 2009 at 2:44 pm
This player speakin right here (me) is sayin that his guild hasnt even done 10 man nax… i blasted through 60 and got gear as the same for 70 but im having a crappy time gettin 80 gear, probably cause guildies left for better guilds leaveing me with crap guildies…. this makes me sad.
By Robinwolf on Friday, March 6th, 2009 at 7:14 pm
Welcome to project lore BRK. Good to see one of my fav bloggers on a great site like PL.
By Ahms on Friday, March 6th, 2009 at 7:16 pm
Great article, totally agree with it
I’m a big fan of Malygos type fights. You get tested on being good at your class for two phases, and in the last phase, you get tested at being a good player. Once you ‘break’ it becomes really easy, and that feeling of accomplishment gets that much better.
The interface could be a bit better for certain vehicle fights, but overall I find them very enjoyable. The crazier and more hectic a fight is the better for me
People who probably are not very good at Maly/Occ/etc. are folks that I’m more than willing to bet still turn around with a keyboard, and are very good at hitting ‘New Post’ on the WoW boards to complain about something
By ScorpioProX on Saturday, March 7th, 2009 at 10:25 am
Part of the fun in games like wow is gearing up getting stronger(feeling sronger), all that wil go to waste when you mount somthing and fight with it. The game was based on you beeing your own hero, or at least feeling like it. Now the drake is the hero, cani get it soem betetr gear? Or maybe a fun hat? You know whats next you can! And you have to wash it and feed it or it will die.. what? wait… aint that? …nvm
By Lil ole me on Sunday, March 15th, 2009 at 10:21 pm
I read this, and I wonder WTF my guild is doing wrong since we can’t even down a single boss in Naxx… (And yes, we did Kara, though not religiously)
Love your posts and videos BRK! :o)
By Sarloc on Tuesday, April 28th, 2009 at 10:24 am
Freaking boring….