Posted by BigRedKitty on Wednesday, March 4th, 2009 - 44 Comments
Tags: heroic, ignorance, learning, pet, PUG, student, stupidity, tank, teacher, threat, violet hold
One of the perils of doing anything publicly is the risk of being labeled “Stupid”. Ignorance we can handle, stupidity not so much. Is there a difference? You bet.
Ignorance is the absence of knowledge. How do rogues do an attack rotation? We have no idea; we’re ignorant about rogue-mechanics.
Stupidity is acting in a manner inconsistent with known facts. We know not to pull aggro from our main tank. If we were to start firing before the main tank has established aggro, we’d be acting stupidly.
There is a fine line between ignorance and stupidity and that’s “Unconventional”. A hunter who melees because he knows no other way is Ignorant. A hunter who knows the proper method of playing a hunter who chooses to melee his way while leveling is Unconventional. So also would be a player who eschews killing mobs while leveling — known as pacifist-leveling — or someone who refuses to wear gear while leveling, just for the challenge of doing it.
Being unconventional is fine, as long as you don’t affect other people without their knowledge and consent.
For example, it is known by most hunters that bringing a level seventy-five pet to a heroic instance will be gimping his own damage-output. It is also well known that the fastest way to level a hunter-pet from seventy-five to eighty is in heroic instances. A single heroic Violet Hold will usually give a pet almost an entire level.
Bringing a level seventy-five pet to a heroic with the goal of leveling it quickly, but seeking the permission of the rest of the raid before the raid starts, is Unconventional.
Bringing a level seventy-five pet to a heroic because you didn’t know there are level seventy-nine pets available for immediate taming is Ignorant.
Bringing a level seventy-five pet to a heroic and without caring about the feelings of the rest of the raid is Stupid.
Personally, we are ignorant about just about everything there is to know about tanking and healing. When we bellow at our tank, “Make more threat!” we are very fortunate she doesn’t yell back, “Why don’t you, in your infinite wisdom, tell me just how you expect me to accomplish that!” Because if she did, we’d stammer and stutter and exclaim, “Just… you know, get it angry. Hit it, whatever, right? Threat! Do it!” And she’d reach through the Internet and squash us for our ignorance.
However we are not stupid, and we know that regardless of how the tank is generating threat, it is our responsibility to not pull aggro from the main tank. Our ignorance of tanking-mechanics can be compensated with our knowledge of hunter-mechanics.
How do we compensate for a tank not generating as much threat as we’d like?
* Cast Misdirection at every opportunity.
* Feign Death before we overtake the tank on the mob’s threat list.
* Just chill out and decrease our DPS until the tank has a solid threat-lead.
If we were to refuse to Misdirect, Feign Death, and reduce our DPS when the tank is having difficulties maintaining aggro, we would not be “teaching the tank a lesson” by intentionally pulling aggro. No, we’d be Stupid.
Eliminating ignorance requires two people: an apt teacher and a willing student.
Eliminating stupidity is the job of just one person: the stupid one. You can encourage, enlighten, educate, and cajole a person towards not being stupid, but ultimately, it’s his decision.
But what else can you do? You can learn to differentiate between ignorance and stupidity yourself and react accordingly.
Your PUG is having a hard time in Culling of Stratholme because the priest keeps running ahead of the party? Remind him that the paladin tank makes a wonderful Undead battering ram. Teach the priest that standing on top of, or slightly behind, the paladin tank will basically guarantee the priest’s survival. If the priest adjusts his tactics appropriately, you’ll have eliminated a little ignorance from the game and probably ensured the success of your run. But if the priest says nothing and keeps running amok, you’ll know that you’re dealing with Stupid and it’s time to abandon-party.
Ignorance, stupidity, and unconventionality are big parts of Warcraft. Learning to modify your behavior when confronting these characteristics is key to your progression and fun in the game, (and in real life too).
Related Posts: BigRedKitty: Baby Hunter 4, BigRedKitty: Baby Hunter 2, BigRedKitty: Baby Hunter 1, Hunters, Do You Need More DPS? Shot Rotation Macro, BigRedKitty: Baby Hunter 3,
By Alayea on Wednesday, March 4th, 2009 at 5:48 pm
A good article that everyone should read up on. (Love seeing the old “Calvin and Hobbes” comic, by the way.)
By Unholypally on Wednesday, March 4th, 2009 at 5:50 pm
Ignorant people i can deal with but there seems to be a growing population of stupid people out there who refuse to listen and do nothing but get me saved to heroic or raids that will fall apart because of them
By Sean on Wednesday, March 4th, 2009 at 5:50 pm
Ah, but what about ignorant, stupid people?
A good read, much applause.
By Josh on Wednesday, March 4th, 2009 at 6:09 pm
Nice article. I guess I’m unconventional. I picked up a round of new pets to try different racials in a raid setting, and asked my guild if I’d be cool to bring them to heroics with me. They didn’t mind, and in two weeks I leveled two pets 75-80 and a third from 76-80.
By Aldei on Wednesday, March 4th, 2009 at 6:14 pm
I’ve always thought ignorant people are the worse out there, until you came up
Guess the word stupid does have its uses after all 
As a hunter, I usually stay back, way back out of harm’s way
Which usually means let tank/pet keep aggro 
By sevink on Wednesday, March 4th, 2009 at 6:27 pm
I remember back in the day one of my first “serious” characters was going to be a Melee hunter. Everyone called me stupid but I LOVED doing it. I only hit like 40 before I quit hunter, but Melee hunter was fun I don’t care what anyone else says.
Good post
By Voldenmist on Wednesday, March 4th, 2009 at 6:38 pm
Nice article BigRed, and a nice change of pace for the lore blog, although I love all the bloggers and there posts.
By Josh on Wednesday, March 4th, 2009 at 6:53 pm
I just want to say that this is one of the most intelligent and well thought out articles i have ever read about world of warcraft. I deal with all 3 of those daily and it is nice to see someone who really understands and even helps people deal with problems they have. I know from this article that you play a hunter but for future reference (as a few of my friends have asked me) if you could maybe ask some people who play other classes their way of threat reduction would only make the game 7 classes less stupid… or is it ignorant?
By sevink on Wednesday, March 4th, 2009 at 7:08 pm
everyone should have a basic understanding of threat and how to reduce it. Almost every class gets a specific skill that reduces threat. When you hit 80, threat shouldn’t really be must of an issue any more unless you outgear your tank by a lot. I remember this one PUG OS 25 we did. I outgeared everyone so much I had to wait a full 45 seconds before I even started to DPS. Most people when they hit 80 should have this basic understanding.
By Grant on Wednesday, March 4th, 2009 at 7:18 pm
Great Post BigRedKitty I should e-mail this to like all of my friends on this lol
By BadRubberPiggy on Wednesday, March 4th, 2009 at 7:27 pm
No call him BigRed, he is BigRedKitty or BRK, don’t be ignorant. I want to hear more about Death Kiniggets!!
By kiley on Wednesday, March 4th, 2009 at 7:30 pm
another amazing post. Understanding threat, whether your a dps, healer or tank is certainly an easy task (and it eliminates ignorance) but doing what your supposed to when it comes to threat whether your a dps,healer or tank is something we should all do no matter what excuse (cause otherwise we’re stupid). Too many dps would rather be top of the damage charts (and threat meter) in a wiped raid than hold off on the dps a little while the tank is establishing threat. Too many healers run ahead of the tank and get one-shot for a raid mob, when all then needed to do was let the tank get in front of them. And sometimes tanks dont understand the importance of a solid rotation to establish threat. All in all, we find that when we find out what we’re supposed to do and actually do it we have fun and can blow through the game material like we’re supposed to
By Littleraven on Wednesday, March 4th, 2009 at 9:06 pm
you are amazing haha, i was reading this and it made me think of so many times that ive seen people act this way…great post….everyone needs to read this and keep it in mind before speaking like they know everything about everything
By Halibel on Wednesday, March 4th, 2009 at 9:45 pm
Great post seen a lot of this lately, there also seems to be a sub-class of said Stupid which seems to be more like arrogance. Just people that obviously do know more than the people in the group but instead of choosing to try and help them they just laugh at them and call them stupid.
By Tharon on Wednesday, March 4th, 2009 at 10:07 pm
I am a lvl 80 Huntard, and just recently picked up a Gorilla from STV. I got him to 76 and then was asked to do H UK, and I took him along. Fortunately it was a guild run and afterwards I asked the healer jist how much he had to heal my pet, which was “Off-Tanking” some of the leets, and the guildie was like very little. In fact he had almost forgotten about my pet who did amazingly enuf did not die once. Maybe for me this time it may have been a bit “Stupid”, maybe a li’l “Arrogant”, but at least I now know my pet is capable of holding its own. Excellent post btw.
By Laeltis on Wednesday, March 4th, 2009 at 10:17 pm
This is a really excellent post. It’s somewhat a new change of pace, but it’s really nice to take new aspects of it. My question though, should people be called stupid if they’re undergeared? That doesn’t really make sense; I’m stupid because the game rolled me a fucking 1, or the upgrade(s) never dropped in the run? Seriously.
Anyway, great to finally read on some good work by you BRK. Plus, I never see Dorkins writing blogs, so it’s nice to see another hunter’s view
By Lladnar of The Dark Menace (Detheroc) on Wednesday, March 4th, 2009 at 10:18 pm
The one thing more annoying is the Ignorant player who refuses to pay attention to the environment, dies every time there’s an environmental “concern” (think every trash pull in VoA), whines when they don’t get a res before the last trash pull and then dies 30 seconds into the Boss fight because they don’t move (again).
Then, the boss goes down cuz the rest of the group picks up the slack DPS and the said Ignoramous has the Gall to beg the person who rolled higher than him on the Tier set to “let him have it because he needs it more”.
/sigh.
By Rhenfusa on Wednesday, March 4th, 2009 at 10:48 pm
Another great post from a sharp mind. Semantics aside, does not Blizz share the blame for not making the 80 levels of grind a little more educational? Threat mechanics seem basic to me now, but the educational system is lacking. Without wowwiki, wowhead, elitistjerks, blogs, kind in-game teachers, and others, I’d still be a poor nub.
By barduck on Wednesday, March 4th, 2009 at 11:51 pm
having all 3 sides off the game (tank, healer and dps) I know from first experience not to overaggro tank, not to run ahead of group as healer and never ever let my healer die no matter how much dps go down (which they almost almost cause on themselfes by … overaggro-ing).
Some dps really need to understand that a druidtank isn’nt as good as a pala or warrior on multiple targets, yes we have swipe but the aggro from that isn’nt as good as the abilities that palas and warriors have. We do rule on bosses tho
Some tanks don’t understand that his healer doesn’t like him to run off to the next pack off mobs and getting LOS and then die because healer couldn’t reach them in time.
And some dps always have to be asked to use all their abilities, which is just stupid. Why bring a lock if their to lazy to make a soulwell, why bring a mage that doesn’t make cookies, etc…
By Andra on Thursday, March 5th, 2009 at 12:00 am
I attempted to run Heroic UP with a PuG because I’d run previously with some of the other members. The tank was def capped, halfway geared and though I’d never played with him, I figured since he had decent stats he knew what he was doing.
It wasn’t until he was attempted to tank the first boss by jumping around a like a PvP rogue on crack, causing us to wipe 3 TIMES due to him not being able to gain or keep any aggro that I decided to pipe up (I’m not one of those people who feels comfortable telling other classes how to play their class- just not how I roll).
Me (rogue): “Um, you will hold aggro more if you stand still while tanking.”
Him: “Oh, really?”
Healadin: “Yeah, you generate a lot more threat when you stand still. Also, don’t turn your back on the mob, you can’t dodge or block at all when your back is turned.”
Him: “I thought the more you move the more he notices you.”
Him: “I still like moving around. It’s boring the other day.”
Would that logic be classified as stupid or ignorant?
By Percolatte on Thursday, March 5th, 2009 at 12:39 am
Great article.
By Lanca on Thursday, March 5th, 2009 at 2:04 am
You’re my new hero, BRK.
- Lanca the tank
By Magealitious on Thursday, March 5th, 2009 at 5:41 am
Love the post!
Interesting read, and I must say i’ve been pondering this for a while now - how do I convince my group to kick the stupid people, over the ignorant/unconventional people.
I for one, am inconventional, I waste a bit of mana spellstealing buffs that could cause a wipe, when i’ve seen other mages never even doing that (wait, that’s common sense….)
Anyway, if i could get everyone on my realm to read this, PUGs would be an awful lot easier.
Loved the pala tank “undead battering ram” bit btw
By Magealitious on Thursday, March 5th, 2009 at 5:43 am
oh, and @ Andra, that’s stupidity pure and simple
By Dyra on Thursday, March 5th, 2009 at 5:46 am
I ran a UK Hc as my holy priest (levelled 10-80 as holy) with some fairly new to 80 characters. At the time I was near full epic and was there just to get badges, and I understand the fact that people have to get geared somehow. Anyway tank wasn’t def capped and dps in general was quite low. Despite this we got to the final boss with only a couple of deaths and all was going well……… Until……..
After a quick mention of basic tactics we dive on in and get him to phase 2 with no problems, until his axe decides to start spinning on where the hunter and warlock are both standing and they don’t move, so despite my best efforts they go down and then we wipe.
I’m busy typing away some encouraging morale boosting message, while re-iterating the tactics, when a party message pops up saying “It’s ur fault we wiped healer. U was 2 slow. L2P and keep us alive next time.”
Now to say I was completely taken aback is an understatement. I had told them 2 move while frantically trying to keep them alive and throughout the whole instance I had been rolling at a steady 1.9K healing per second with only about 13% overheal.
I got mad.
I posted my healing numbers asked them if they could honestly tell me how I could heal any better or faster than that, seeing as at the time 1.9K healing per second is what I could do raid buffed. Silence. Of course they couldn’t. Anyway we re-grouped and downed him, and parted with a couple of our members being better geared than they were coming into the instance.
Despite this I didn’t deign to tell them that their dps should be higher or that tanks should be at least near the def cap. Why? Because I don’t know how those classes work, let alone embarass myself saying what they should be doing when I have no idea how they could do it better.
By kerania on Thursday, March 5th, 2009 at 6:23 am
I dont like it when people tell other people how to play their class, but im alwasy sure to ask for advice at the start of any instance. I find that pugs are getting to be much less relaxed these days, everyone seems to be the first to pounce on everyone else. It makes it really hard for people ( like a couple of my guildies) who are far from the best at what they do, but they are trying and are always open to advice, instead it ends up with some guy who doesnt play the class giving them “advice” ie, “wtf y cant u dps”" holy shit u suck” and so on and so forth. I think if people were jsut friendlier earlier on and gave advice when they knew what they were talking about the number of people who dont know what their doing endgame would greatly decrease.
Fantastic post, though i dont think you can expect someone to be able to follow your advice perfectly the first time. It takes practice.
By Eugen on Thursday, March 5th, 2009 at 6:40 am
Really great post and I really do agree with it.. considering I also have a hunter these are everyday problems we all confront some time in our WoW life:)
By Prower on Thursday, March 5th, 2009 at 10:57 am
TY, BRK!
this needed to be said SOOOO badly! the number of alts out there vastly outweighs the number of new players.
nobody who has raided sicnce TBC is going to take “stupidity ” accusations well. Simple fact is most alts are learning a whole new playstyle, constructive critisisum is in my opinion the best way to improve on a limited knolidge base.
Just insulting people who, do understand what it is they are trying to achive, they just dont know how.
reflects badly on only one person… YOU!
By Ombrenoire on Thursday, March 5th, 2009 at 11:35 am
MD is an excellent tool of a Hunter’s survival in any situation. Soloing? Cast it on pet. Grouped? Tank is a nice target. Same with raids.
In every raid I have ever been in I have made it a point to follow the tank up until he/she engages the target and then tag the tank with a quick MD before retreating to just in front of the healers. The same tactic works if I have to do a pull: MD the tank, pull, and retreat to the healers.
Why in front of the healers? Cloth versus mail. I have a chance at surviving longer than them since they are healing me when things start heading south. At the same time I can keep an eye on the healers to pull my pet out of the fight and onto whatever is heading for them.
This is a strategy learned from experience since, I admit, I was once an ignorant (bordering on stupid) player. Like BRK said, it’s just a matter of being willing to learn a better strategy to make the wipes a thing of the past.
By Nebyula on Thursday, March 5th, 2009 at 12:18 pm
This was a very nice post. I wholeheartedly agree. With every word.
Imho, people confuse the 3 all the time, and those who just don’t know get kicked, and that isn’t fair.
By Deidare on Thursday, March 5th, 2009 at 3:36 pm
I have to say i love you man (no im not uhh gay), but if i knew how to e-mail i would so i could talk to project lore and you more often.. unfortunatly i dont know how…
By Deidare on Thursday, March 5th, 2009 at 3:39 pm
i realize im ignorent about e-mail not stupied, hehe very funny.
By Tharon on Thursday, March 5th, 2009 at 10:16 pm
Ombrenoire thanks for the idea, i had actually never thought of that, normally i jist keep an eye out for anything to start goin for my clothies and jist drop volley on em to grab aggro with my Imp Volley. but standing in front of the healers/clothies is a much better idea, THANKS
By Athenish on Friday, March 6th, 2009 at 8:22 am
When I first started running heroics, I always took my level 80 pet. I geared up in raids very quickly. I recently switched to SV, which meant lots of pet leveling for me. I did this all in pug heroics, but always with the stipulation that if I wasn’t #1 in dps Id go get my lvl 80 pet. Always being at least 35%-40% of the groups dps makes people less likely to whine about your low leveled pet. So, if you’re 10% above the next dps guy, whats the harm in leveling your pet in a heroic? I’d never try to level a pet as BM in a heroic though, THAT is stupid.
By Phyllixia on Friday, March 6th, 2009 at 10:32 am
Good read. I’m pretty unconventional myself, although in my guild it’s called being weird or eccentric
By Ziboo on Friday, March 6th, 2009 at 11:48 am
Great post. As one that has done numerous ignorant things on many alt classes, I definitely appreciate the person that /w me about what to do differently. The stupid ones though - argh.
@Andra - that made me laugh out loud! GAWD!!!!
By ineedakite on Friday, March 6th, 2009 at 12:56 pm
Wow Both of your posts on Project lore were great the only thing is when i bring a lvl 75 pet into a heroic (I only did once i hit 80) i asked the rest of the group if they minded and if they cared i just brought my gorrila if not my devilsaur was comming. ^^
But then i did lvl my cat by dailys when i went survival soon after i hit 80
By Kiya on Friday, March 6th, 2009 at 6:58 pm
Great post BRK!
As a hunter I would never think to melee during raids. That would be crazy. But when I am soloing, I tend to melee often during the second half of the fight. I don’t mind paying a small repair cost for meleeing when the mobs drop dead at my feet. I see running to mob bodies as a waste of time. Probably unconventional.
By Hatell on Saturday, March 7th, 2009 at 5:42 pm
@Sean: Ignorant-Stupid people are those who hear you say “there’s a lvl 79 pet over there that you can befriend.” but don’t make the connection that they should!
I guess my friends and I are good about this. Everyone I know will say, “Hey, I have this going on.” or, “Hey, I’m having troubles with this.” It’s just nice to know what’s going on. I went to Culling of Stratholme not long ago and I asked the one person I knew in our group if he could get on vent with me just so I would know what was going on. It was my first time and I wanted to be well informed. Immediately the priest in the group said, “We don’t need vent for this we’ll be just fine.” Yeah, wipe 5 times and see if you like it then. *glares at that priest.*
By Rugi on Monday, March 9th, 2009 at 8:14 am
Ignorant people are sometimes quite nice, actually, when they accept your advice and thank you for it.
However, stupid people just keep popping out of nowhere, mostly at lvl 80’s.
As my good-friend affliction warlock knows, people just keep staring at the dps meter. That is fine, really, when you want to know who in the group is slacking. But, however, as an affliction warlock, it is really hard to do decent dps on trash mobs without pulling aggro from the tank (as you would have to curse every mob). After a while, the group leader just decided to kick him, even though he did the top dps on boss.
This should fall in the category of sheer ignorance, but the sheer stupididy that a person can show is outstanding…. rogue healing with bandages?
What category does the people fall who knows that the current PUG is a fail one, but still refuses to leave as there is 0.0001% chance that they MIGHT succeed?
By Jordan Chisum on Tuesday, March 10th, 2009 at 1:59 am
Lovely post BRK. There is a definable line between stupidity and ignorance. I experienced this recently too, in a PUG VOA 25 man. Now, sure, we had plenty of DPS. More than enough heals. But of course, when we scream at out tanks to keep out of Archavon’s Gas, they don’t. Sure, if it happened one time, I wouldn’t care. I could get over that wipe, and go on with my life. But no. This went on for two wipes, until the RL said “screw it”, and kicked the damn tanks.
By geo on Tuesday, March 10th, 2009 at 8:34 am
Ignorance of how to play another character is ok, as long as its recognized by the person speaking! Someone crosses over to stupid when they choose to ignore their own ignorance… Many examples to be see out there… As a Hunter (not huntard!) i see it all the time. Tank screaming at hunters in a raid because they are claiming they are getting stunned from someones aspect of the pack, when there is no aspect up and the tank isnt even in a hunters group so even if it was it wouldn’t affect them! Then noticing the same pally tank has crusader aura on for the whole fight! LOL. Then the next screaming fit when a rogue in stealth accidentally aggros a bunch of mobs and the same tank is screaming at hunters to keep their pets on passive! LOL. I cant tell you how many times I have died from pulling an add off a healer who pulled aggro from a tank only to get grief from others in the raid for dying! (Note: most of the times the healers recognize it and I will see some nice heals during the rest of the raid.)
And on a side note… I miss KARA, there was nothing like being a survival hunter, kiting/trapping adds for the whole fight on Moroes and still being one of the top in DPS on the boss… I miss my traps being useful… And back then it was great running with my old 10 man team which has since parted ways - back before every “stupid” player re-rolled a DK and became a professional in every class but their own…
By Nekudotayim on Monday, March 30th, 2009 at 10:31 am
Great post!
By Shnoo on Friday, April 3rd, 2009 at 6:03 am
Ok, so (before my holy pally is 80) I ran 25OS on my recently 80 rogue. The whole experience is a blast, and my dps wasnt the worst.
Once we down Sarth and get rezzed, the ldr calls out the First item. Concealment Shoulderpads, (i quickly hit “c” and check my shoulders, seeing that they were a pair of crappy greens i quickly rolled, and damn, it was a 96. (I was pretty pleased) Until a rogue with full val steps in and says, i need those more than him. (I sit there like wtf) The raid leader gives it too him of course, trying to be courteous. Then i go /raid WTF? He has fu**ing full valorous, i have sh*tty greens and blues. tHen he goes, oops. While the rogue says “You were worst dps, you dont deserve sh*t” and leaves raid… Now where does Mother F*cking bastard come in to place?